Class 458/5

[Manchester77]

Would a new build of 480s (dc version of a 380) meet the current regs or have the regs changed enough since the 380s were built that a new build would fall foul of the regs?

Or we could just order 700s which are the most up to date desiros?

 

[455driver]

The constant rolling improvement of accessibility, crash-worthiness and emissions requirements must be adding an enormous amount of costs to nearly every element of operating the railway network in this country.

But it keeps all the designers etc in a job.
I do agree with you that all this moving standards rubbish has got out of hand and there is no discernible reason for it.

I am not advocating going back to the slammers by any means but the 450 etc design is a good strong design and is perfectly adequate for the modern way. The 380 with its silly sloping front to improve crash worthyness but which affects the drivers view out the front is just silly.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But it keeps all the designers etc in a job.
I do agree with you that all this moving standards rubbish has got out of hand and there is no discernible reason for it.
.

Yeah, the goalposts are moving so quickly that train-builders can't keep up. At the rate we're going, the captive stock for HS2 will look something like this:

 

[jopsuk]

Are the manufacturers really "struggling to keep up"?

Who do you think actually sets these standards?

 

[Chris125]

Are all these regulations necessary? Surely what matters is the safety of staff and passengers. So if the trains are safe continue to build them.

No train design is 100% safe for staff and passengers in every eventuality, so it's a question of reducing risk - safety standards have risen throughout the history of the railways and advances in technology and engineering practices allow that to continue.

As for how restrictive these standards are, the 379/387 bodyshell would suggest the 450 cab design could have been updated if Siemens had wished to, while passengers have now been allowed at the front of trains travelling above 100mph.

Would a new build of 480s (dc version of a 380) meet the current regs or have the regs changed enough since the 380s were built that a new build would fall foul of the regs?

380s use the Desiro City bodyshell, which is specifically designed to meet current standards.

Chris

 

[3141]

People talk about current safety standards, lower risk and so on, but it would be interesting to know precisely in what ways a 380 is better than a 450, or a 379/387 than a 375. The degree to which it is more crash-resistant, or whatever other improvement there may be.

Then it would also be interesting to know how many fatalities or serious injuries have occurred (standardised in some form such as per million miles of running) for 450s and for 380s. It might show the extent to which the new standards, which prevent any new 450s from being built, have actually made a difference.

 

[Juniper Driver]

From memory; a number of platforms on the Reading line can't handle anything longer than an 8 car 450/458 at present.

Pretty certain Martins Heron cannot.

Earley/Winnersh Triangle/Winnersh/Wokingham*/Bracknell/Martins Heron/Ascot/Sunningdale/Longcross/Virginia Water/Feltham**.

*=Ok down Road.Not so sure up road,must pay attention.
**=Saw the ten car up road with two sticking out the back over the crossing.

Was down the Reading Road twice (yesterday) and was a bit cheesed off and glad to get home.On thinking about it though,those two trips were trouble free and the trains very well behaved (and so were the passengers).Im going to miss these units on the Reading Road.:cry:
Hope this mod doesn't ruin them.

 

[Goldfish62]

People talk about current safety standards, lower risk and so on, but it would be interesting to know precisely in what ways a 380 is better than a 450, or a 379/387 than a 375. The degree to which it is more crash-resistant, or whatever other improvement there may be.

Then it would also be interesting to know how many fatalities or serious injuries have occurred (standardised in some form such as per million miles of running) for 450s and for 380s. It might show the extent to which the new standards, which prevent any new 450s from being built, have actually made a difference.

I believe that the crashworthiness at the front of the 380 is greatly improved, thus it can actually be reduced at the carriage ends within the train, thus allowing an overall increase in internal space.

I'm not sure the 379/387 are any different from the 375 in terms of crash-worthiness - just another Electrostar-ish build. They will anyhow be last of type as the Aventura replaces Electostar. It features a sloping front to the lastest crash-worthiness standards. Not sure if a gangwayed version is offered.

 

[455driver]

I believe that the crashworthiness at the front of the 380 is greatly improved, thus it can actually be reduced at the carriage ends within the train, thus allowing an overall increase in internal space.

Where are they going to put all the electronics that currently occupy the space behing the driver then?

 

[Class172]

Yeah, the goalposts are moving so quickly that train-builders can't keep up. At the rate we're going, the captive stock for HS2 will look something like this:

I was thinking more of this; being based off a tried and tested design, the class 20.

 

[Chris125]

I'm not sure the 379/387 are any different from the 375 in terms of crash-worthiness - just another Electrostar-ish build. They will anyhow be last of type as the Aventura replaces Electostar. It features a sloping front to the lastest crash-worthiness standards. Not sure if a gangwayed version is offered.

The 379 bodyshell was "revised to meet European crashworthiness requirements" and the 387 order was only confirmed last year, so the design would appear to meet current standards.

Chris

 

[samuelmorris]

It looks identical though - off-topic zone approaching, but what's changed since the 377?

 

[Chris125]

It looks identical though - off-topic zone approaching, but what's changed since the 377?

It's probably best summed up by a recent Modern Railways article about the new Electrostars for Southern, which use the 379 body:

"The Class 377/6 order sees a number of improvements over previous Electrostar batches. It uses the Class 379 body design that is TSI-compliant for crashworthiness and tunnel operation. It has traditional windows instead of ribbon glazing and there is a slight difference in the body profile at door step level"

Chris

 

[hassaanhc]

Latest update on the 458/5 project http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/longertrains.aspx?stop_mobi=yes#141725

Another 4 units due by September, out of which two units be reserved for crew training.
Porterbrook and Alstom also funding installation of Wi-Fi on these trains.
Whole project due for completion Summer 2015.

The first 60 extra carriages allocated through the HLOS programme to provide more capacity for our passengers are owned by Porterbrook. These require significant modification and interior refurbishment to bring them up to the standard required for our passengers, and once this has been completed, the trains will be provided to us through a lease arrangement to deliver a total of 18 x 10-carriage Class 458/5 trains.
We have so far introduced two 10-car 458/5 trains which are being used to provide extra capacity on services from Waterloo to Windsor and on the Hounslow Loop and Weybridge route. Between June and September, we expect a further 20 carriages to be completed by our contractors and handed over to South West Trains. Ten of these carriages should be introduced into passenger service during September, and the remaining ten are needed to complete our staff training programme.
All of the remaining carriages will then be introduced in a rolling programme before Summer 2015.

A major re-engineering project
Due to the scale and complexity of this 'first of a kind' project, which has involved extensive modification and creating one new train out of two completely different trains, the initial scale of work needed was underestimated by the contractors and is therefore currently running a year behind schedule.
Porterbrook's contractor, Alstom and their sub-contractor Wabtec now fully recognise the challenges they are facing with this programme and have doubled the level of resource that they are dedicating to this project. We have also provided additional support from South West Trains and will continue to work closely with the contractors to ensure that the programme moves forward as quickly as possible, whilst maintaining the high quality of the trains already delivered.

We have continued to raise our concerns about the impact of the delay on our passengers and in recognition of the inconvenience caused by the delay to the programme, Porterbrook and Alstom have agreed to fund the installation of WiFi on the new Class 458/5 Fleet.
We have been undertaking a series of investments and projects to increase capacity, and the extra carriages are just one part of a wider programme of work. This has seen platforms at 60 stations extended and the re-opening of Platform 20 of the former Waterloo International Terminal. These projects have now been completed successfully by the South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance.
We remain committed to delivering this programme of extra capacity. We will continue to provide support to Porterbrook and its contractors to help ensure our passengers can start to benefit from these additional carriages. We are also continuing to work with the government on developing and delivering longer term capacity improvement plans for the future.

 

[Goldfish62]

Where are they going to put all the electronics that currently occupy the space behing the driver then?

The same as where they put them in then 380s, of course.

 

[infobleep]

Which routes will the wifi enabled trains run along? Will South West Trains advertise which trains will be wifi enabled I wonder.

I look forward to reading about South West Trains longer term infrastructure development plans.

Given South West Trains franchise will come to an end in 2019 I am surprised at their interest in providing extra capacity and improving the infrastructure in the longer term.

Will this help them in their application for the next franchise after this one? Given their work at the moment to improve capacity, I certainly hope so.

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[jopsuk]

The "wifi enabled trains" will run on the Windsor side inner suburban services, as has been planned for the 458s for ages, with the possibility that when the new inner suburban fleet is ordered and more stations upgraded for 10-car operation they'll get 1st class reinstated and move onto Reading services.

The wifi doesn't change this!

 

[infobleep]

Are there currently stations no longer offering first class on that route which formally did? In such circumstances do they remove the first class tickets from sale?

If first class was removed and is then put back, will people simply think oh standard class ain't so bad after all; I think I'll save my money and stay in standard class.

 

[hassaanhc]

Are there currently stations no longer offering first class on that route which formally did? In such circumstances do they remove the first class tickets from sale?

If first class was removed and is then put back, will people simply think oh standard class ain't so bad after all; I think I'll save my money and stay in standard class.

Depends on the stations; Those that don't have any services with First Class offered according to the timetable are all the stations where the Reading services don't stop at all. I believe most of these do not have First Class tickets available for sale with an origin/destination of that station. Hounslow and Brentford have two services from Reading-Waterloo every weekday so do have First Class tickets available, but only tickets with an origin of that station as they only run in that direction.

 

[infobleep]

Why run first class solely in one direction from those stations? I guess the actual question is why are there not trains with first class stopping that those two stations in the evening?

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[hassaanhc]

Why run first class solely in one direction from those stations? I guess the actual question is why are there not trains with first class stopping that those two stations in the evening?

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There are 1722 and 1753 Reading-Waterloo services that run via Hounslow, calling at Hounslow, Brentford and Putney instead of the usual Twickenham and Richmond. All services to/from Reading have First Class. There are no corresponding services in the opposite direction.

 

[infobleep]

I doubt one could buy a return ticket where one section is first class and the other standard class or vice versa.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This morning was surprised to find a blue Desiro train with toilets on board, used for the 8.36 Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham. It's not one of the new ones either. I was even more surprised when the guard announced passengers had to be in the front 4 coaches of this 8 car train, at 2 of the stations before Surbiton. I forget which ones now. I thought the platform lengthening on the Cobham line had been completed and if so wouldn't it be possible to open all the doors?

Incidentally I use to sometunes catch the 8.31 fast to Woking and then wait a while for the 8.55 fast to Surbiton, just so I could use trains with toilets. The 8.55 arrives in at the same time as this train, which shows just how fast those trains are. If this is the case for the 8.36 that it has loos then I'll catch it instead.

I'd actually prefer the 7.17, 7.36 or 8.07 services to have loos but this is better than nothing.

Update: was Cobham and Oxshott that had short platforms. The extensions exist but there is a gate blocking them off.

Turns out this appears to be a one off. A fellow passenger was heard to say it makes a change to have posh train for once. Now these are the same trains that an MP from Portsmouth said were too squashed. Just goes to show what people opinions are based on what they usually use. Perhaps the Portsmouth services should be made up of the usual Cobham line stock and then they can experience something different! May be then they will shut up moaning. Lol.

After talking to a fellow passenger at Cobham it dawned on me that this doesn't officially have first class. So where did I move to next. If only I'd realised at the start of my journey. Lol!

 

[hassaanhc]

I doubt one could buy a return ticket where one section is first class and the other standard class or vice versa.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This morning was surprised to find a blue Desiro train with toilets on board, used for the 8.36 Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham. It's not one of the new ones either. I was even more surprised when the guard announced passengers had to be in the front 4 coaches of this 8 car train, at 2 of the stations before Surbiton. I forget which ones now. I thought the platform lengthening on the Cobham line had been completed and if so wouldn't it be possible to open all the doors?

Incidentally I use to sometunes catch the 8.31 fast to Woking and then wait a while for the 8.55 fast to Surbiton, just so I could use trains with toilets. The 8.55 arrives in at the same time as this train, which shows just how fast those trains are. If this is the case for the 8.36 that it has loos then I'll catch it instead.

I'd actually prefer the 7.17, 7.36 or 8.07 services to have loos but this is better than nothing.

The 0836 Guildford-Waterloo is part of a single diagram that is booked to be a Desiro for the next few weeks because of a lack of 456s. The Desiros are a bit longer than 455s and the short platforms were at Cobham, Oxshott and Claygate. I used that line a couple of months ago and the extensions weren't ready, but not sure about now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From Monday 19 May for several weeks the following train services will be operated by a blue Class 450 train rather than the usual red Class 455 train while we wait for delivery of our refurbished Class 456 trains;

08:36 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham
09:47 London Waterloo to Chessington South
10:39 Chessington South to London Waterloo
11:24 London Waterloo to Dorking
12:35 Dorking to London Waterloo

These trains be run by red trains again as soon as possible.

http://m.journeycheck.com/southwest...521&webMsg=true&&engWorksPeriod=&serviceTime=

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for that. Might consider going into work later for the next few weeks. First class for standard class. Yes please. Lol.

Joking aside, somehow I doubt the passengers on the Cobham line want them to be run by red trains as soon as possible.

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[hassaanhc]

Thanks for that. Might consider going into work later for the next few weeks. First class for standard class. Yes please. Lol.

Joking aside, somehow I doubt the passengers on the Cobham line want them to be run by red trains as soon as possible.

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I don't think most people would want "red" ones in hot weather, the poor airflow on 455s was a frequent source of Twitter moans over the last few days. And yes in my experience that is true. And last week it seemed they had several suburban diagrams short formed which didn't help (along with signalling problems), one day it was the sole 450 diagram too. They are some of the oldest trains in the London area now aren't they?

Back on topic (:P), the Windsor & Eton Riverside 458/5 diagram is 8 coaches instead of 10 today

 

[randompixel]

I don't think most people would want "red" ones in hot weather, the poor airflow on 455s was a frequent source of Twitter moans over the last few days. And yes in my experience that is true. And last week it seemed they had several suburban diagrams short formed which didn't help (along with signalling problems), one day it was the sole 450 diagram too. They are some of the oldest trains in the London area now aren't they?

Back on topic (:P), the Windsor & Eton Riverside 458/5 diagram is 8 coaches instead of 10 today

It didn't show up at all this morning. Cancelled. Needless to say the 8 coach 458/0 that followed it was rather uncomfortable.

 

[Smod]

It didn't show up at all this morning. Cancelled. Needless to say the 8 coach 458/0 that followed it was rather uncomfortable.

There was a 10 coach 458/5 parked up at Wimbledon depot this morning with a display of graffiti (yuk) which would seem to explain the cancellation.

 

[infobleep]

Why would graffiti cancel a service? Can't they simply deal with it at a weekend? How do train services get defaced in this way? Are people simply roaming the tracks at night with spray cans?

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[hassaanhc]

The reason given by SWT was "train fault".

Graffiti probably wouldn't cancel a service (I've seen quite heavily graffitied coaches in service), yes it does seem that people get into sidings at night and do it (although BTP are said to be monitoring another location, I won't detail the exact location for obvious reasons).

 

[fgwrich]

The reason given by SWT was "train fault".

Graffiti probably wouldn't cancel a service (I've seen quite heavily graffitied coaches in service), yes it does seem that people get into sidings at night and do it (although BTP are said to be monitoring another location, I won't detail the exact location for obvious reasons).

I noticed there must have been an apparent rise in SWTs rolling stock getting the graffiti treatment as of late - I had 444021 or 444023? twice last week which look like it had at least the FC coach unfortunately plastered in the stuff. :roll: So good luck to those in BTP on these cases!