Class 458/5 - some details

[Goldfish62]

There's an interesting article in the new edition of Modern Railways about the forthcoming Class 458 lengthening project. Things that stand out:

Seating will be converted to 2+2 with 1+1 around door areas, ie inner suburban format, 458 cabs will be fitted with a conventional gangway and Delner couplers while the 460s will get a completely new cab. ASDO will be fitted. The ex-460 coaches will retain their skirting and ribbon glazing. Surprisingly, they will be painted in outer-suburban blue, rather than inner-suburban red, despite their interior configuration.

First two units will be complete 460 conversions, which will then allow the first two 458s to be taken out of service.

All interesting stuff!

 

[lookingforit35]

Inner suburban format. Oh dear, one can imagine the good folk on the Windsor line will be less than impressed.

 

[hmp455]

Will the Kingston/Shepperton lines have their platforms lengthened or not, to allow these trains on it? And is there more news on the 456 front?

I assume the 460s will be modified to look like the 458s

Must say, I am not impressed with the inner suburban format on these (quite lovely) trains. :cry:

 

[Lampshade]

Blue livery? Inner suburban seating? Gangways?

Glad I completed 458s before they're mutilated hock:

 

[Peter Mugridge]

With gangways the front end appearance will change considerably.... Hmmm... Need a new nickname for them as they won't be "snouts" any more!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Blue livery? Inner suburban seating? Gangways?

Glad I completed 458s before they're mutilated hock:

Luckily for me (or not) I am able to continue driving these units,but due to railway politics my future for driving these units looked doubtful.The Reading re-signalling has sorted this out.I think I have to keep an open mind about whats happening with the reformations.

Also the computer system will need a bit of revamping,it's always been a bit twitchy anyway.Although on it's day some features are more useful than the desiro TMS's.

 

[MrC]

Will the Kingston/Shepperton lines have their platforms lengthened or not, to allow these trains on it?

I think ASDO is being used across SWT to mitigate for platforms not being lengthened, at least in the short term.

 

[swt_passenger]

Inner suburban format. Oh dear, one can imagine the good folk on the Windsor line will be less than impressed.

The Windsor line already uses HC 450s, with an inner suburban conversion, first class removed, and mostly 2+2 seating...

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Will the Kingston/Shepperton lines have their platforms lengthened or not, to allow these trains on it? And is there more news on the 456 front?

All the inner suburban branches are having their platforms lengthened to 10 car unless physically impossible, the contract was awarded towards the end of last year, for completion by Dec 2013.

They probably won't be using 458/5s on those routes normally though, they are nearly all needed for the Windsor side inners, ie Windsor, Hounslow loop, and Weybridge.

No news on the 455/456 multiple working, however it is explicitly referred to in NR's enhancement plans.

 

[Barclay]

This sounds good. I commute Twickenham to Waterloo everyday, and find the 3+2 seating in the 458s a bit squashed. 2+2 seating will be more comfortable, and increase available room for standing on busier trains.

The 458s are quite tired inside now, SWT keep the seat upholstery ok but the trim and flooring is quite manky in parts. Plus the lighting is too harsh; give me a 450 interior anyday!

Once all this is done, I'd really like to see the return of fast services on the Staines to Reading section. It's such a stagger to Reading from Twickenham, stopping at every lampost in Berkshire... a quicker train could mean that on trips from South West London to the West Country, Oxford, and the Midlands it could be viable to go via Reading rather than the London terminals.

 

[SWT_USER]

The Windsor line already uses HC 450s, with an inner suburban conversion, first class removed, and mostly 2+2 seating...

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All the inner suburban branches are having their platforms lengthened to 10 car unless physically impossible, the contract was awarded towards the end of last year, for completion by Dec 2013.

They probably won't be using 458/5s on those routes normally though, they are nearly all needed for the Windsor side inners, ie Windsor, Hounslow loop, and Weybridge.

No news on the 455/456 multiple working, however it is explicitly referred to in NR's enhancement plans.

Do you know which platforms can't be lengthened? The only two that immediately spring to mind are Isleworth and Hampton Wick neither of which can currently take an 8 car 450 and both have bridges at each end IIRC.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you know which platforms can't be lengthened? The only two that immediately spring to mind are Isleworth and Hampton Wick neither of which can currently take an 8 car 450 and both have bridges at each end IIRC.

Stations where SDO is to be used are as follows:

Isleworth (platforms 1 & 2)
Hounslow (platforms 1 & 2)
Syon Lane (platforms 1 & 2)
Virginia Water (platform 3 only)
Chertsey (platforms 1 & 2)
Egham (platforms 1 & 2)
Addlestone (platforms 1 & 2)
Feltham (platforms 1 & 2)
Sunnymeads (Platforms 1 & 2)
Wraysbury (platforms 1 & 2)
Datchet (platforms 1 & 2)

Hampton Wick specifically is listed as being extended to 10 car.

Just for completeness, stations between Virginia Water and Earley on the Reading line are not yet planned to get 10 car operation. It is a CP5 proposal though.

 

[Pumbaa]

The Windsor line already uses HC 450s, with an inner suburban conversion, first class removed, and mostly 2+2 seating...

I didn't think it was mostly... 4 bays of 3+3 down one side coupled with 8 rows of 2 down the other reduced to 2 bays of 3+3 and 2 bays of 2+2 down the first side with the other side left as is.

Actually when you put it like that... Yes I'll give you that one!
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This sounds good. I commute Twickenham to Waterloo everyday, and find the 3+2 seating in the 458s a bit squashed. 2+2 seating will be more comfortable, and increase available room for standing on busier trains.

Its going to be just as squashed. The inner suburban layout comes from removing the third seat to give a wider aisle. The seats are no bigger and there's only more space if you're standing!

 

[387star]

Funny I thought most were in favour of having the third seat removed. 2+2 probably is better overall and 3+2 sounds more suburban to me

Looks like a Waterloo to Poole service will become 2x 450 rather than a 444

 

[Minstral25]

Funny I thought most were in favour of having the third seat removed. 2+2 probably is better overall and 3+2 sounds more suburban to me

Looks like a Waterloo to Poole service will become 2x 450 rather than a 444

To me there is no difference between 3+2 and 2+2 with a wide aisle. Having said that the SWT 3+2 seems to have more space than the Southern/FCC version especially in the 319's where there is acres of space between the seats but nothing to hold onto.

Proper 2+2 with armrests should be standard specification on all trains - it's only polite

 

[jon0844]

2+2 should be standard, at least until we can get wider trains (something for HS2?). The seats are too cramped and many people won't use the middle seat - or do so very reluctantly and often wish they'd stood!

More room in the aisles makes a big difference for standees, and for people to get on and off etc.

Having something to hold on to is obviously a good idea - and it's surprising that some trains don't have this. The 313s have seat grips and hand rails along the luggage racks, but the 317s don't (and I guess neither do the 319s) which is stupid and easy to fix! It's hard enough to get people to move down as it is, but when there's nothing to hold then it's even more tough.

 

[JonathanH]

Once all this is done, I'd really like to see the return of fast services on the Staines to Reading section. It's such a stagger to Reading from Twickenham, stopping at every lampost in Berkshire... a quicker train could mean that on trips from South West London to the West Country, Oxford, and the Midlands it could be viable to go via Reading rather than the London terminals.

Have there ever been fast services *west* of Staines? I think there were once fast services east of Staines, the like of which we'll never see again but even the off-peak trains that used to go around the Hounslow loop in the early part of this century and skipped some of the stations called at Egham, Sunningdale, Ascot, Martins Heron, Bracknell, Wokingham and Reading and did this in 41 minutes as opposed to 48 minutes for the all stations service. They were pretty slow east of Staines.

Given the core market is "Berkshire lamposts" to London and Reading, the maximum linespeed is 70mph and there are no passing facilities, I don't ever see the Reading to Waterloo line changing from being a half-hourly stagger.

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks like a Waterloo to Poole service will become 2x 450 rather than a 444

Well it does say exactly that in both DfT's and SWT's press releases, so that's no surprise...

 

[Lrd]

Well it does say exactly that in both DfT's and SWT's press releases, so that's no surprise...

I had an 2x450 last night on a Poole service, I was not impressed when I saw them pull into Waterloo, luckily it was fairly quiet and after Woking I had a bay of 6 to myself. Still prefer an airline seat on a 444 though.

 

[Electrostar]

Considering the differences between the two units such as ribbon glazing I'm surprised they're not classifying them as two different sub-classes of 458.

"458 cabs will be fitted with a conventional gangway and Delner couplers while the 460s will get a completely new cab." Does this mean the 458 will retain the existing light clusters and receive an external gangway, with the 460s still looking different than them even after conversion?

Considering EMT hasn't adopted the red livery either I wonder if SWT are planning to stick to blue and white in future? The red has never looked as good. I just hope they can match the lovely shade of blue seen on the 450s.

 

[swt_passenger]

..."458 cabs will be fitted with a conventional gangway and Delner couplers while the 460s will get a completely new cab." Does this mean the 458 will retain the existing light clusters and receive an external gangway, with the 460s still looking different than them even after conversion?

The Modern Railways article by Ian Walmsley reads to me as though all the units will end up with basically the same cab as seen from outside, which will match those on a Desiro "to allow line clearance or de-trainment in emergency". He describes that the changes to the 458s do include all new light clusters and headlights. A picture caption reads "All 36 ... units will have a Desiro-style front end like this".

Another quote - "In the end, the trains will look like Desiros, but be more reliable". hock:

Another point made in the article (as discussed upthread) is that the seats in the 2+2 layout will be spaced further apart, ie the third seats won't just be removed, as per the 450/5s. This is what makes all the difference on the SWT 455s, they didn't just remove 'seat 3' from the triples on those.

 

[Ministry]

No news on the 455/456 multiple working, however it is explicitly referred to in NR's enhancement plans.

"Main Purpose
The commitment to deliver the HLOS project involving the introduction of class 458/5 and 456 units into Wimbledon has necessitated an assistant’s role to the depot Senior Production Manager."

Quoted from a job advert on the SWT website, so I guess that's confirmation of where the 456s are heading.

 

[Lrd]

"Main Purpose
The commitment to deliver the HLOS project involving the introduction of class 458/5 and 456 units into Wimbledon has necessitated an assistant’s role to the depot Senior Production Manager."

Quoted from a job advert on the SWT website, so I guess that's confirmation of where the 456s are heading.

So it's more than an 'enthusiasts rumour' then?

 

[Ministry]

So it's more than an 'enthusiasts rumour' then?

I suppose that depends entirely on what you mean by the term 'enthusiast's rumour'. As stated, the quote has been taken from the SWT website for a current job vacancy they're advertising (http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/job-search.aspx - check the Senior Production Manager Assistant role at Wimbledon depot, Reference number SWT02074).

I can't see why they would say that the role is required for the introduction of 458/5 and 456 units unless they were, in fact, introducing 458/5 and 456 units to the franchise.

 

[387star]

I had an 2x450 last night on a Poole service, I was not impressed when I saw them pull into Waterloo, luckily it was fairly quiet and after Woking I had a bay of 6 to myself. Still prefer an airline seat on a 444 though.

Oh I forget they do in fact run to Poole. It is Weymouth which only have one very early morning working

 

[Barclay]

Have there ever been fast services *west* of Staines? I think there were once fast services east of Staines, the like of which we'll never see again

yes, there used to be fast(er) trains west of Staines until about 15 years ago. East of Staines there's a good mix - the semifasts off the Windsor branch and the fasts from Reading.
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Its going to be just as squashed. The inner suburban layout comes from removing the third seat to give a wider aisle. The seats are no bigger and there's only more space if you're standing!

It's not going to be as squashed; there is a quote from Ian Walmsley in this months Modern Railways (page 41) saying the seats will be spaced apart.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

yes, there used to be fast(er) trains west of Staines until about 15 years ago.

I'm sure at one time there were 3tph Ascot-Reading, the 3rd starting at Ascot and being limited stop, paid for I think by Berks CC.
It soon went back to 2tph stoppers.

 

[Barclay]

According to a poster on the 'four foot' forum, there was a service which no longer runs under headcode 36. It ran Waterloo - Clapham - Richmond - Staines - Ascot - Wokingham - Bracknell - Reading.

Not sure when it stopped, but it would be great to see it return!

 

[swt_passenger]

So it's more than an 'enthusiasts rumour' then?

It was basically confirmed when Network Rail put it in the CP4 enhancement plans about 4 months ago, but Modern Railways have been writing about it for something over a year...

 

[JonathanH]

According to a poster on the 'four foot' forum, there was a service which no longer runs under headcode 36. It ran Waterloo - Clapham - Richmond - Staines - Ascot - Wokingham - Bracknell - Reading.

Not sure when it stopped, but it would be great to see it return!

Yes, that rings a bell from looking back at old timetables - summer 1989 - 67 minutes:

WAT xx00, CLJ xx07, RMD xx15, ACT xx39, MAO xx44, BCE xx48, WKM xx54, WNS xx58, WTI xx00, EAR xx02, RDG xx07

I guess you could manage a 62 minute end to end journey time if Martins Heron the stops between Wokingham and Reading were cut out.

In that timetable, there was the above "semi-fast" and two stopping services, the xx03 to the Bagshot line and the xx33 to Reading - the xx03 had a connection at Ascot for Reading that had worked from Guildford via Aldershot.

A Staines stop was put in the "semi-fast" in 1991. In 1992, the service was cut to a half hourly stopping service roughly like today's service.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Another change not mentioned is that they will be re-geared for 75mph running, not so much for performance but to increase motor speeds and therefore airflow and cooling (as the fans are directly connected to the motor). Apparently the 460s are geared for 125mph, presumably because it makes them more comfortable cruising at 90mph on Gatwick Express.