Class 458/5 conversion a mistake?

[D365]

Just a thought regarding the new South Western franchise.

If First MTR had proposed their wholescale metro fleet replacement plan a few years back, do you think that this would have meant that the Class 458/5 conversion would not have needed to go ahead? To me it's looking like a big mistake was made, because where are those units going to end up now? Definitely not back at Gatwick Express.

On a similar note, maybe the now-unnecessary Class 707 order could have been avoided as well.

 

[swt_passenger]

How far back is this hindsight going? The OJEU tender that eventually produced the 458/5 conversion, and the 456 acquisition, was actually issued in 2009 - for introduction in around 2011/12. It dragged on for a while...

From a saved copy (as it is no longer online on the OJEU tender sites), it started out as a requirement for up to 180 5 car Desiro compatible additional vehicles:

120 to 180 vehicles (20 metre) to operate in 5 car formation. (or approx. 100 m length equivalent).
Estimated value excluding VAT: 180 000 000 GBP.

What turned up was pretty underwhelming compared to the original request, 108 vehicles (60 ex 460 and 48 x 456s).

First/MTR hadn't even have been thought of back then, and the decision would have been nothing whatsoever to do with any other body than SWT and DfT

Just to add a bit more, the 707s are a product of a 2013 OJEU tender requirement. So First/MTR would have needed a time machine to affect that as well...

 

[coppercapped]

Just a thought regarding the new South Western franchise.

If First MTR had proposed their wholescale metro fleet replacement plan a few years back, do you think that this would have meant that the Class 458/5 conversion would not have needed to go ahead? To me it's looking like a big mistake was made, because where are those units going to end up now? Definitely not back at Gatwick Express.

On a similar note, maybe the now-unnecessary Class 707 order could have been avoided as well.

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing... ?

(Why, for <insert name of deity of choice>'s sake does everything in the rail enthusiasts' world have to be a 'mistake'? Maybe, just maybe, the situation regarding availability of money, expected passenger growth, terminal capacity, etc. was different then? It's only in the last three or four years that SWT has become a net premium payer to the DfT - this alone would give it a greater degree of flexibility and independence).

 

[physics34]

as said previously the 460s shouldve remained at Gat Ex and the 458s shouldve joined them. Limited mods would have been required.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They are doing fine at the moment.I think we should just be patient and see what happens.As for 707s I think they will be around for a little while yet.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I agree, they might see 12-18 months service before they start being "withdrawn" as & when the new units then arrive, crew train starts and they enter service.

I do hope that they give us something that's a bit decent. But if the 37x series are anything to go by forget it.

 

[swt_passenger]

They are doing fine at the moment.I think we should just be patient and see what happens.As for 707s I think they will be around for a little while yet.

I'm quite convinced they will. I suspect a few people are being taken in by the local BBC report. The new franchiseee was required to continue the 707 introduction into service in the ITT. It would be quite amazing if that wasn't to happen as planned.

 

[D365]

Fair enough, I understand the situation regarding timescales and so on. It just seems unfortunate that, come 2020, we will be ending up with two batches of five-car electric units off-lease and requiring costly conversions if they are to be cascaded to AC electrified routes, in addition to the plethora of more versatile four-car units.

 

[Roast Veg]

There is of course the far less costly conversion to 4 car units for routes on which that is more appropriate.

 

[Clansman]

Given that the Juniper series is the probably the most minority build of EMUs in the UK, I can definitely see the logic in integrating the 2 fleets down in England for many reasons.

At the time, the 442s were going off SWT anyway, and facing the scrap, whilst Reading and Windsor needed capacity. Then you've got Gatwick Express which the majority of the time couldn't even fill an entire 460, or even double up if they were ever used on Southern services. So from there you're left with a few options;

a) Acquire a new fleet of trains for SWT - creating another minority build of trains, and scrapping the 442s, and leaving the 460s to run with majority of unfilled seats on Gatwick services, and too few on Southern services due to the inability to double up

b) Transfer the 442s to GatEx, and 460s to SWT without mods; leaving you with trains with varying lengths, capacity and class provisions and ultimately 2 separate fleets of the same minority build of trains - more units for crew to train on also

c) Transfer the 442s to Gatwick Express where their capacity will be more utilised (both single and doubled up), and integrate the 460s with the 458s into one overall fleet of trains of proportionate lengths and consistent capacity - and strengthening the Juniper fleet overall for potential future use.

Option C seems like a no brainer for the time: Cost effective, and maximises use of the resources available at the time from both a financial, and operational perspective. So No, I don't think the 458/460 integration was a mistake.

They were only around 10 years old at the time, so it would've been pointless to throw away perfectly modern (ish) trains, hence why Stagecoach and the DfT found a way to squeeze a good few years out of them before they became unsuitable - which would've been the case hadn't it been for the existence of the 460s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Did Siemens still offer the Desiro "Classic" (class 450s) as an option for new builds at the time?

 

[D365]

Did Siemens still offer the Desiro "Classic" (class 450s) as an option for new builds at the time?

Yes, I believe an add-on batch of five-car units was the preferred option.

 

[MCR247]

Given that the Juniper series is the probably the most minority build of EMUs in the UK, I can definitely see the logic in integrating the 2 fleets down in England for many reasons.

At the time, the 442s were going off SWT anyway, and facing the scrap, whilst Reading and Windsor needed capacity. Then you've got Gatwick Express which the majority of the time couldn't even fill an entire 460, or even double up if they were ever used on Southern services. So from there you're left with a few options;

a) Acquire a new fleet of trains for SWT - creating another minority build of trains, and scrapping the 442s, and leaving the 460s to run with majority of unfilled seats on Gatwick services, and too few on Southern services due to the inability to double up

b) Transfer the 442s to GatEx, and 460s to SWT without mods; leaving you with trains with varying lengths, capacity and class provisions and ultimately 2 separate fleets of the same minority build of trains - more units for crew to train on also

c) Transfer the 442s to Gatwick Express where their capacity will be more utilised (both single and doubled up), and integrate the 460s with the 458s into one overall fleet of trains of proportionate lengths and consistent capacity - and strengthening the Juniper fleet overall for potential future use.

Option C seems like a no brainer for the time: Cost effective, and maximises use of the resources available at the time from both a financial, and operational perspective. So No, I don't think the 458/460 integration was a mistake.

They were only around 10 years old at the time, so it would've been pointless to throw away perfectly modern (ish) trains, hence why Stagecoach and the DfT found a way to squeeze a good few years out of them before they became unsuitable - which would've been the case hadn't it been for the existence of the 460s.

If there was a poll on this forum at the time, I'm pretty sure most would've said C...

 

[D365]

Given that the Juniper series is the probably the most minority build of EMUs in the UK, I can definitely see the logic in integrating the 2 fleets down in England for many reasons.

At the time, the 442s were going off SWT anyway, and facing the scrap, whilst Reading and Windsor needed capacity. Then you've got Gatwick Express which the majority of the time couldn't even fill an entire 460, or even double up if they were ever used on Southern services. So from there you're left with a few options;

Would there have been any impracticalities with merging the Class 458 and Class 460 fleets under Gatwick Express?

 

[43096]

They were only around 10 years old at the time, so it would've been pointless to throw away perfectly modern (ish) trains, hence why Stagecoach and the DfT found a way to squeeze a good few years out of them before they became unsuitable - which would've been the case hadn't it been for the existence of the 460s.

The 458s are not unsuitable for the duties they do now, nor their future planned use on the Reading line. Quite the opposite, in fact: they are a very nice train for those duties.

That they are seemingly to be replaced is down to the DfT's obsession with new trains. Recent builds of new stock have been worse than what has been replaced; I see no reason why this won't happen again. New does not automatically meen better.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would there have been any impracticalities with merging the Class 458 and Class 460 fleets under Gatwick Express?

Academic really, as the opportunity didn't ever arise. When DfT decided they wanted to increase overall peak capacity on the Brighton line the 458/0s were not available.

But the time that GatEx temporarily had a couple of 458s as emergency cover (although IIRC they were never needed), around 11 or 12 years ago, suggests there would have been little or no issue using 458s on the route.

 

[Mikey C]

It does seem that a lot of decisions have been reversed though, even ignoring the complicated 458/5 rebuilds.

1) Removing the 442s from Portsmouth Line - this has been reversed.

2) Then using the 442s to replace the 460s - they didn't last very long in service there, before a replacement set of trains the 387s was announced. While without the special features of the 460s, they are conceptually far closer to the 460s than the 442s.

 

[MatthewRead]

It does seem that a lot of decisions have been reversed though, even ignoring the complicated 458/5 rebuilds.

1) Removing the 442s from Portsmouth Line - this has been reversed.

2) Then using the 442s to replace the 460s - they didn't last very long in service there, before a replacement set of trains the 387s was announced. While without the special features of the 460s, they are conceptually far closer to the 460s than the 442s.

The 442's were primarily used on the Weymouth line before they were withdrawn.

 

[Mikey C]

The 442's were primarily used on the Weymouth line before they were withdrawn.

Rephrasing my comment, the 444s (mainly) from the Portsmouth were moved over to replace the Weymouth line 442s, but the overall effect is similar, in that SWT removed the "express" stock from the Pompey line, but 10 years later that decision has been reversed.

 

[swt class 450]

Just a thought regarding the new South Western franchise.

If First MTR had proposed their wholescale metro fleet replacement plan a few years back, do you think that this would have meant that the Class 458/5 conversion would not have needed to go ahead? To me it's looking like a big mistake was made, because where are those units going to end up now? Definitely not back at Gatwick Express.

On a similar note, maybe the now-unnecessary Class 707 order could have been avoided as well.

Yes i think the whole 458 and 460 conversion project was a big mistake. They should have just left the 460s with Gatwick Express and left the 458s as they were in their original 4 coach formations with South West Trains. The problem with 5 coach 458s is that they will not be able to operate in 12 coach formations which is a big inconvenience especially as many lines are so busy and keep getting busier and more overcrowded. If they were left as 4 coaches then they would be able to easily operate as 12 coach trains by attaching three units together. The trains were also very modern so didn't really need a full refurbishment yet. And especially seeing as the 458s are now likely to get withdrawn i think it was a huge waste of money.

 

[GW43125]

Yes i think the whole 458 and 460 conversion project was a big mistake. They should have just left the 460s with Gatwick Express and left the 458s as they were in their original 4 coach formations with South West Trains. The problem with 5 coach 458s is that they will not be able to operate in 12 coach formations which is a big inconvenience especially as many lines are so busy and keep getting busier and more overcrowded. If they were left as 4 coaches then they would be able to easily operate as 12 coach trains by attaching three units together. The trains were also very modern so didn't really need a full refurbishment yet. And especially seeing as the 458s are now likely to get withdrawn i think it was a huge waste of money.

No SDO on 458/0 which is what caused the pains.

 

[swt class 450]

No SDO on 458/0 which is what caused the pains.

SDO could have very easily been fitted to the 458/0s though.

 

[Starmill]

What use would a 12 coach train have been on the Windsor or Reading lines? And where would the extra units have come from?

 

[swt_passenger]

What use would a 12 coach train have been on the Windsor or Reading lines? And where would the extra units have come from?

Another earlier reply with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. At the time of the 458/460 conversion the medium term policy was for a ten car suburban network, hence all the OJEU tenders for 5 car units.

DfT policy was to remove the low capacity 460s from the Brighton line (at least in the peaks) to increase the overall line capacity, a debate that has been going on for 10 years or so, and to what end? It is done now, 460s are gone, end of debate - they aren't going back...

10 car on the Reading route increases the basic vehicle numbers by 25%, but the doubling of all day frequency to 4 tph is also another massive boost, as it is on the Windsor route too. 10 car 4 tph to Reading should have easily dealt with capacity there for the intended life of the 458/5s

It's all very well saying they should be 12 car routes, but was it affordable?

 

[Clansman]

Yes i think the whole 458 and 460 conversion project was a big mistake. They should have just left the 460s with Gatwick Express and left the 458s as they were in their original 4 coach formations with South West Trains. The problem with 5 coach 458s is that they will not be able to operate in 12 coach formations which is a big inconvenience especially as many lines are so busy and keep getting busier and more overcrowded. If they were left as 4 coaches then they would be able to easily operate as 12 coach trains by attaching three units together. The trains were also very modern so didn't really need a full refurbishment yet. And especially seeing as the 458s are now likely to get withdrawn i think it was a huge waste of money.

That's the problem with franchising system (not that I'm touting for a debate); the first operator wants to keep the 458s and order 707s, yet midway through that construction, the second operator announces they want to get rid of them both when they take over. But I guess some may say First/MTR's decision is benefitting other operators as others will benefit from the 707s at First/MTR's expense. So it's a double edged sword on this one - but I wouldn't call the whole conversion a "mistake" for this reason.

Obviously the 707s will find a home no bother, but as for the 458s, there's only one logical place they can (partly) go for future operations.

In the end, at the time they were looking to increase capacity on GatEx and integrate the trains with Southern - the 460s lacked the capacity for Southern services, and as they were fixed formation sets, couldn't be doubled up, whereas the 442s (off-lease at the time) provided the flexibility and increased capacity to run longer formed services for Southern 9and GatEx). If the conversion never happened, the 460s would've had no future use under any operator without major modification - which is why it seems the sensible option to do was to integrate them with their sister fleet who operates a route which was crying out for additional capacity in a short timeframe.

 

[WarrenTManager]

SDO could have very easily been fitted to the 458/0s though.

Easily from experience or easily from an armchair?

 

[59CosG95]

Easily from experience or easily from an armchair?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When the 444s and 450s had the ASDO (might be just SDO) stuff installed, was all the internal stuff already in place (extra cabling, circuit boards, etc)?

The 458s can only goto Southern (GTR), Gatwick Express (GTR), SouthEastern or MerseryRail as they're the only ones apart from SWT who use 3rd rail. I can't see LO going for them as they're happy with Adventras. The reason being that the ex 460s were pure 3rd rail, with no provision for future conversion to overhead

 

[swt_passenger]

When the 444s and 450s had the ASDO (might be just SDO) stuff installed, was all the internal stuff already in place (extra cabling, circuit boards, etc)?

444/450 ASDO was incorporated into the existing train management system (TMS). The extra hardware and wiring would be to add and communicate with the onboard sensors. It is most definitely ASDO rather than SDO, and immediately prior to the fitting of ASDO the fleet used a 'whole unit' SDO system generally referred to as Unit Deselect (abbreviated UDS). None of this should be news to you.

AIUI from previous discussions ORR no longer allows new manual SDO systems.

 

[Class455]

When the 444s and 450s had the ASDO (might be just SDO) stuff installed, was all the internal stuff already in place (extra cabling, circuit boards, etc)?

The 458s can only goto Southern (GTR), Gatwick Express (GTR), SouthEastern or MerseryRail as they're the only ones apart from SWT who use 3rd rail. I can't see LO going for them as they're happy with Adventras. The reason being that the ex 460s were pure 3rd rail, with no provision for future conversion to overhead

Why on earth would GX need these again? They've just got a brand new fleet of Class 387's! Likewise with Southern. They've got the 377/5's returning from Thameslink, so have enough stock. The only thing I could see moving to Southern are the 455's (not the whole fleet though) for an increase in capacity on the Metro lines.
They have the potential (apart from 458531-536) to have a pantograph added so they could move to the Welsh Valleys I suppose when thats electrified?