Class 455 Driver Guard bell question.

[stadler]

As far as i am aware the 455s are the one and only multiple unit (well other than the 373s and 374s which are the same) where the Guard can use the bell but there is no bell for the Driver to use. This means that the Driver is unable to return bell codes.

I know at Southern the Guard would just simply give two bells and the Driver would depart. There was no repeating of bell codes from the Driver as they had no ability to do so.

From what i remember i think that at SWR it is still the same and the Guard just gives two bells and the Driver departs without repeating them? Looking at cab photos SWR do not seem to have retrofitted any bell buttons?

My question is why were the 455s built without any bell button for the Driver to use? I have always wondered why such a basic feature was omitted from these trains as there must be a reason behind not fitting these buttons?

They always had Guards on them from day one. So it is not like they were planned to be entirely DOO operated and even other trains that were built for DOO have had bell buttons installed. Even the very similar 456s have bell buttons in the cab so that the Driver can return bell codes. So i would be very curious if anyone knows why this feature was omitted from these trains and can provide any information on this.

 

[Bigfoot]

The driver returns the bells via the IC button. There was a bell button on the desk which was removed, quite a long time ago, one or two units still have the hole/blanking plate visible.

 

[Geswedey]

I remember at least one class of unit used out of Liverpool Street where the Drivers bell button was close to the Pan down button and yes it did happen until the pan down button had a flap put over it.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

From what i remember i think that at SWR it is still the same and the Guard just gives two bells and the Driver departs without repeating them?

There are some drivers (usually, but not always, from a particular depot which shall remain nameless) who do just that and don't bother to return the bells.

 

[Towers]

That seems a bizarre way of working, amazed it still prevails after all this time! How exactly does the driver return the bells via the IC, I presume the dreaded TrainFX system isn’t in place? Or is it simply verbal?

As a side note then, in the event of a bell/buzzer failure on any other SWR stock is the same IC method permitted for use as a means of degraded working, or is it flags as usual?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

That seems a bizarre way of working, amazed it still prevails after all this time! How exactly does the driver return the bells via the IC, I presume the dreaded TrainFX system isn’t in place? Or is it simply verbal?

As a side note then, in the event of a bell/buzzer failure on any other SWR stock is the same IC method permitted for use as a means of degraded working, or is it flags as usual?

The driver just gives "2" using the IC button, the same way they would if giving "3-3" to contact the guard.

As far as I'm aware, it's flags as usual in the event of degraded working on any other stock. Certainly on the Desiros, the IC system doesn't work in the same way as the 455s, and makes an awful long continuous "buzz" upon being initiated precluding the use of "3-3".

 

[Towers]

The driver just gives "2" using the IC button, the same way they would if giving "3-3" to contact the guard.

As far as I'm aware, it's flags as usual in the event of degraded working on any other stock. Certainly on the Desiros, the IC system doesn't work in the same way as the 455s, and makes an awful long continuous "buzz" upon being initiated precluding the use of "3-3".

Indeed; TrainFX found on many retrofitted units these days just plays a loud beep when the IC is pressed, no means of sending codes with it!

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Indeed; TrainFX found on many retrofitted units these days just plays a loud beep when the IC is pressed, no means of sending codes with it!

Ah, so that's what you meant by "TrainFX" in the first paragraph. I wasn't aware it was called that.

 

[Leyland155]

Indeed; TrainFX found on many retrofitted units these days just plays a loud beep when the IC is pressed, no means of sending codes with it!

At my TOC, TrainFX sounds an automatic 3-3 when either cab to cab is used, or if a call for aid is activated. It's important to look at the display to check which it is!

 

[stadler]

The driver returns the bells via the IC button. There was a bell button on the desk which was removed, quite a long time ago, one or two units still have the hole/blanking plate visible.

So they were built with bell buttons originally? If so why did they remove them? That seems very odd to remove the buttons. You would not think such a basic feature would not be removed.

The only thing i can think of is perhaps only some subclasses were built with the bell button but not others. So they got rid of it to remain consistent across the entire Class 455 fleet.

Now you mention that this makes me remember that there is a couple of SWR 455s that have a mystery white button that has no label saying what it is for. It is a white button just to the left right next to the horn. I know 455 915 still has it but most other 455s including most other 455/9s do not. I always wondered what this was. Could this be a disused bell button? Perhaps that explains what it is?

I remember at least one class of unit used out of Liverpool Street where the Drivers bell button was close to the Pan down button and yes it did happen until the pan down button had a flap put over it.

Oh dear that sounds like a poor design. I think especially with Drivers that drive multiple different classes which all have different button layouts it is probably an easy mistake to make. I have noticed those buttons almost always seem to have flaps over them these days on most trains. On some trains (like the SWR 707s for example) they even put flaps over all the open and close buttons to prevent the Driver from accidentally pressing them.

There are some drivers (usually, but not always, from a particular depot which shall remain nameless) who do just that and don't bother to return the bells.

I guess it is one of those things that they easily get away with so some Drivers will not bother. That was actually the standard way of doing it on the Southern units right up until 2018 when the last Guard operated 455s ran so it is interesting how Southern and SWR do it differently. On the 455s at Southern the normal procedure was for the Guard to give two on the bell and then the Driver just departed. There was no pressing the IC button to repeat the bell on the Southern units and i am not even sure if that would have worked as they used a different system to what the SWR units have.

The driver just gives "2" using the IC button, the same way they would if giving "3-3" to contact the guard.

As far as I'm aware, it's flags as usual in the event of degraded working on any other stock. Certainly on the Desiros, the IC system doesn't work in the same way as the 455s, and makes an awful long continuous "buzz" upon being initiated precluding the use of "3-3".

Ah that is an interesting method. I did not realise that the IC button was used as a bell.

So to clarify the IC button on the SWR 455s just makes a single short beep sound? So the Driver just presses the IC button two times in a row like they would with a bell button and that sounds a beep twice that the Guard can also hear?

On this video at 32:40 you can hear two beeps followed by two beeps that sound different:

So i presume that the second lot of two beeps are the Driver pressing the IC button twice in place of a bell button.

It is certainly an unusual method to use the IC button as a bell. But i guess it saves them the cost of putting in proper bell buttons.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

So to clarify the IC button on the SWR 455s just makes a single short beep sound? So the Driver just presses the IC button two times in a row like they would with a bell button and that sounds a beep twice that the Guard can also hear?

That is correct, yes. Though I believe the beep sounds for as long as the IC button is pressed for, as some drivers like to return the bells as a long-short "beeeeep-beep".

On this video at 32:40 you can hear two beeps followed by two beeps that sound different:

So i presume that the second lot of two beeps are the Driver pressing the IC button twice in place of a bell button.

That is also correct. It sounds like the guard was working from one of the passenger doors in the video, as when the bells are given from a passenger door GOP, they also sound as a beep, whereas when working from a cab, it's an actual bell (ding) sound. The bells when given by the driver always sound as a beep regardless of where on the train you're working from.

And just as another interesting point, the driver cannot return the bells when the automated announcements are playing, as the IC overrides the PA. Technically, you can cancel the automated announcements and then give the bells, and some drivers do, however it's considered bad practice to do so.

I assume the return bells are still able to be given on the Desiros when the automated announcements are playing, as they're not given through the PA/IC system, but I don't work enough of them to know for certain(!)

 

[stadler]

That is correct, yes. Though I believe the beep sounds for as long as the IC button is pressed for, as some drivers like to return the bells as a long-short "beeeeep-beep".

That is also correct. It sounds like the guard was working from one of the passenger doors in the video, as when the bells are given from a passenger door GOP, they also sound as a beep, whereas when working from a cab, it's an actual bell (ding) sound. The bells when given by the driver always sound as a beep regardless of where on the train you're working from.

And just as another interesting point, the driver cannot return the bells when the automated announcements are playing, as the IC overrides the PA. Technically, you can cancel the automated announcements and then give the bells, and some drivers do, however it's considered bad practice to do so.

I assume the return bells are still able to be given on the Desiros when the automated announcements are playing, as they're not given through the PA/IC system, but I don't work enough of them to know for certain(!)

Many thanks for the information. That does seem a bit poor if the Driver has to cancel the automated announcements to return the IC bell. I suppose that is the issue with not fitting a proper bell button.

Yes the Desiro trains definitely allow you to give the bell (or beeper more accurately) while the automated announcements are playing. I have heard this on the 444s and 450s and 707s many times. The bells are completely separate.

An example can be heard at 04:40 here:

You can hear the Guard give two bells and the Driver return two bells all while the automated announcements continue to play.

I have also heard bells being given on 375s and 377s and on the new 701s and 730s while the automated announcements are playing. I think every other train in the UK allows bells to be given while an automated announcement is playing as the bells are always separate. It sounds like the 455s are unique in being the only trains without a bell button therefore requiring the IC button to be used.

I suppose the IC button and PA system and entire PIS system is all linked and that includes the automated announcements so it does make sense that using the IC button while the automated announcements are playing is not possible. Although i would have thought they could make it so that pressing the IC simply cuts out the automated announcements but i suppose that would be more complex. In any case the 455s will be withdrawn within a few years so it will not be an issue for much longer.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Many thanks for the information. That does seem a bit poor if the Driver has to cancel the automated announcements to return the IC bell. I suppose that is the issue with not fitting a proper bell button.

Yes the Desiro trains definitely allow you to give the bell (or beeper more accurately) while the automated announcements are playing. I have heard this on the 444s and 450s and 707s many times. The bells are completely separate.

An example can be heard at 04:40 here:

You can hear the Guard give two bells and the Driver return two bells all while the automated announcements continue to play.

I have also heard bells being given on 375s and 377s and on the new 701s and 730s while the automated announcements are playing. I think every other train in the UK allows bells to be given while an automated announcement is playing as the bells are always separate. It sounds like the 455s are unique in being the only trains without a bell button therefore requiring the IC button to be used.

Thanks for confirming re giving the return bells during automated announcements on other stock. I had a feeling the 455s would be the only stock where that quirk exists.

Although i would have thought they could make it so that pressing the IC simply cuts out the automated announcements but i suppose that would be more complex. In any case the 455s will be withdrawn within a few years so it will not be an issue for much longer.

I think that might actually be the case. I'm not a driver so can't advise on how exactly those who do cancel the announcements and give the bells do so, but I'd assume it's a press on the IC button to cancel the PA, and then "2" on the IC (bells) as usual.

As a guard, when I need to cancel an announcement, I pick up the handset and press the "push to talk" button, which in turn lights up the IC button and overrides the announcement, before replacing the handset - perhaps that's what the drivers do too, I'm not sure.

 

[Towers]

Is this why guards rarely if ever make use of the saloon panels then? I always see dispatch from the cabs.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Is this why guards rarely if ever make use of the saloon panels then? I always see dispatch from the cabs.

I can't speak for all guards (I'm sure there are some who don't bother to walk their train at all), but personally I find the saloon GOPs awfully uncomfortable to use. I do use them but they wouldn't be my preference.

Unlike the Desiros, which have the panel at a right angle to the door (and are very comfortable to dispatch from), the 455s have the buttons facing inwards, which makes for an awkward stretch around your local door to operate the doors - and that's if you can even judge where the buttons are, otherwise it's stepping on and off.

The cab GOPS are much more comfortable to use being at right angles to the doors, and the proper bell sound is oddly satisfying.

 

[DMckduck]

Is this why guards rarely if ever make use of the saloon panels then? I always see dispatch from the cabs.

It probably has more to do with a certain large depot at SWR which occupies most of the guard work on 455s.

You can usually tell when you are on a train with a guard from this depot.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I can't speak for all guards (I'm sure there are some who don't bother to walk their train at all), but personally I find the saloon GOPs awfully uncomfortable to use. I do use them but they wouldn't be my preference.

Unlike the Desiros, which have the panel at a right angle to the door (and are very comfortable to dispatch from), the 455s have the buttons facing inwards, which makes for an awkward stretch around your local door to operate the doors - and that's if you can even judge where the buttons are, otherwise it's stepping on and off.

The cab GOPS are much more comfortable to use being at right angles to the doors, and the proper bell sound is oddly satisfying.

Did you ever work 455s when they had panels in the 508 coaches? They were handily mounted at right angles to the doors.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Did you ever work 455s when they had panels in the 508 coaches? They were handily mounted at right angles to the doors.

Unfortunately not, and I wasn't aware they used to have panels in the 508 coaches (at least as part of the 455 formation). Learn something new every day.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Unfortunately not, and I wasn't aware they used to have panels in the 508 coaches (at least as part of the 455 formation). Learn something new every day.

You should still be able to see where they were plated over in the not too distant past - something to look for next time you're strolling through one! I'm not entirely sure why they were removed though - maybe something @WarrenTManager may know?

 

[stadler]

I can't speak for all guards (I'm sure there are some who don't bother to walk their train at all), but personally I find the saloon GOPs awfully uncomfortable to use. I do use them but they wouldn't be my preference.

Unlike the Desiros, which have the panel at a right angle to the door (and are very comfortable to dispatch from), the 455s have the buttons facing inwards, which makes for an awkward stretch around your local door to operate the doors - and that's if you can even judge where the buttons are, otherwise it's stepping on and off.

The cab GOPS are much more comfortable to use being at right angles to the doors, and the proper bell sound is oddly satisfying.

I was speaking to a Guard on Northern very recently who was saying the same thing about the 195s and 331s too as you have to fully step back on to the train to reach the buttons on those too. I suppose the issue with the 455s is that fitting a panel at a right angle like on a Desiro would not really be possible unless you wanted a big box sticking out next to the door.

It probably has more to do with a certain large depot at SWR which occupies most of the guard work on 455s.

You can usually tell when you are on a train with a guard from this depot.

I think that is probably the same depot where a lot of the Metro Guards like locking out the gangway doors on the 450s so the passengers can not walk through. I remember a thread about that on here recently.

Did you ever work 455s when they had panels in the 508 coaches? They were handily mounted at right angles to the doors.

Unfortunately not, and I wasn't aware they used to have panels in the 508 coaches (at least as part of the 455 formation). Learn something new every day.

You should still be able to see where they were plated over in the not too distant past - something to look for next time you're strolling through one! I'm not entirely sure why they were removed though - maybe something @WarrenTManager may know?

I never realised either that the 508 carriages had panels in them. They must have been very short lived.

Searching online these are the only old photos i can find which are not the clearest but you can still clearly see the panel bolted to the wall next to the door:





In these more recent photos you can see the screws and plate where it used to be bolted on to before being removed:





So it is just simply a box which has been bolted on to the wall. On the proper 455s carriages it is has actually been built in to the wall so you hardly notice the panel is there unlike this one which sticks out. But i suppose as the 508s have a different body design there was no space to do this. It reminds me of the retrofitted 313s saloon panels which are simularly just a box bolted on to the wall just like this.

Presumably these ex 508 carriages panels were just door controls? They look too small to fit a handset and PA so i presume they were like the 319 and 458 and 769 saloon panels in that they were simply door controls and a bell button only?

Out of interest does anyone know did if the panels in these ex 508 coach panels made the same beep sound as the normal 455 saloon panels? Or did they have a proper bell like in the cab or a buzz or a different sound?

It seems they must have added these when the 455s were refurbished in the mid 2000s (at the same time the normal 455s coaches got saloon panels) but the question is when and why they got rid of them. It would certainly be useful for Guards to have a panel in this coach especially when doing ticket checks.

 

[Towers]

Any idea why the PEP door controls were removed?

 

[RUK]

There are some drivers (usually, but not always, from a particular depot which shall remain nameless) who do just that and don't bother to return the bells.

Surely it saves time if the driver doesn’t have to do an extra step before leaving, so doesn’t it make sense to do that?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As far as i am aware the 455s are the one and only multiple unit (well other than the 373s and 374s which are the same) where the Guard can use the bell but there is no bell for the Driver to use. This means that the Driver is unable to return bell codes.

I think class 3k and 4k are the same where it’s only guard bells with no acknowledgement. Class 450s were definitely that way, not sure about the 80s?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Surely it saves time if the driver doesn’t have to do an extra step before leaving, so doesn’t it make sense to do that?

Technically yes, however it's in the Rule Book that the driver should acknowledge the "2" on the bells through means of repetition, i.e. by giving "2" back.

I personally don't have a problem if I'm working a train and the driver doesn't return the bells, but it's not the correct method of working and to be honest just comes across as sloppy or lazy working.

If the driver is concerned about timekeeping, then they can return the bells after applying the throttle and the train starts moving, as some drivers already do.

 

[stadler]

Any idea why the PEP door controls were removed?

Looking at photos the old 508 panels looked like very bulky panels that stuck out in to the doorway. So this makes me wonder if removing them was to do with health and safety and they were worried about people banging their head in to them when boarding and alighting. I am not sure and it is just a guess. But i can not think of why else that SWR or SWT would have removed them so soon after fitting them.

Surely it saves time if the driver doesn’t have to do an extra step before leaving, so doesn’t it make sense to do that?

The time saved by the Driver not returning the bell is so little that the saving would not even be noticeable. It takes like one second to press a bell button twice.

I think class 3k and 4k are the same where it’s only guard bells with no acknowledgement. Class 450s were definitely that way, not sure about the 80s?

Ah that is interesting to hear. I never knew how Northern Ireland stock worked.

Is the DD stock is the same in that the Driver can not return bells? I wonder if the 201 locomotives and the DVT driving carriages have bell buttons. I am not entirely sure what despatch method they use. It is based on Eurostar stock so it could well be similar?

Regarding the 3000/4000 i seem to remember that the cabs look very similar to the 332/333 cabs. So that has me wondering if Northern drivers on 333s can return bells.

Technically yes, however it's in the Rule Book that the driver should acknowledge the "2" on the bells through means of repetition, i.e. by giving "2" back.

I personally don't have a problem if I'm working a train and the driver doesn't return the bells, but it's not the correct method of working and to be honest just comes across as sloppy or lazy working.

If the driver is concerned about timekeeping, then they can return the bells after applying the throttle and the train starts moving, as some drivers already do.

Yes it is very lazy for the Driver not to simply press a button twice. It is so simple and a good courtesy to comfirm you have understood the Guards bell code.

I remember many years ago Southern had an issue (particular with Drivers at one certain depot which spent a lot of time working DOO services) where some Drivers did not bother returning the bell on 377 trains. At one depot they sent out an instruction to Guards that if a Driver failed to return 2 on the bell they were to contact the Driver as soon as the train reached the next stop and inform them that returning 2 on the bell was required. If a Driver failed to return 1-2 (some Drivers did not bother returning the code when doing ten bell despatch) then the Guard was to immediately contact the Driver and instruct them to return 1-2 before the Guard gave the ready to start bells.

I am sure you will always get a small amount of Drivers who do not bother to return it. But it certainly comes across as lazy and poor practice.

 

[DMckduck]

Looking at photos the old 508 panels looked like very bulky panels that stuck out in to the doorway. So this makes me wonder if removing them was to do with health and safety and they were worried about people banging their head in to them when boarding and alighting. I am not sure and it is just a guess. But i can not think of why else that SWR or SWT would have removed them so soon after fitting them.


The time saved by the Driver not returning the bell is so little that the saving would not even be noticeable. It takes like one second to press a bell button twice.


Ah that is interesting to hear. I never knew how Northern Ireland stock worked.

Is the DD stock is the same in that the Driver can not return bells? I wonder if the 201 locomotives and the DVT driving carriages have bell buttons. I am not entirely sure what despatch method they use. It is based on Eurostar stock so it could well be similar?

Regarding the 3000/4000 i seem to remember that the cabs look very similar to the 332/333 cabs. So that has me wondering if Northern drivers on 333s can return bells.


Yes it is very lazy for the Driver not to simply press a button twice. It is so simple and a good courtesy to comfirm you have understood the Guards bell code.

I remember many years ago Southern had an issue (particular with Drivers at one certain depot which spent a lot of time working DOO services) where some Drivers did not bother returning the bell on 377 trains. At one depot they sent out an instruction to Guards that if a Driver failed to return 2 on the bell they were to contact the Driver as soon as the train reached the next stop and inform them that returning 2 on the bell was required. If a Driver failed to return 1-2 (some Drivers did not bother returning the code when doing ten bell despatch) then the Guard was to immediately contact the Driver and instruct them to return 1-2 before the Guard gave the ready to start bells.

I am sure you will always get a small amount of Drivers who do not bother to return it. But it certainly comes across as lazy and poor practice.

It also shows a lack of professionalism.