Class 444s

[pinkpanther]

There's very little demand to run more than one unit west of Bournemouth....

I imagine that will change while the Olympic sailing events are running next year.

What plans SWT have to deal with the additional demand (especially bearing in mind the obvious rolling stock availability and technical issues) is anyone's guess.

 

[jopsuk]

Even as a keen sailor, I reckon forecasts of hordes heading to Weymouth may be wide of the mark...

 

[swt_passenger]

I imagine that will change while the Olympic sailing events are running next year.

What plans SWT have to deal with the additional demand (especially bearing in mind the obvious rolling stock availability and technical issues) is anyone's guess.

AFAIAA the current 2 tph to Weymouth is the Olympic plan, it was just brought in a bit early. The NR route plan reads:

The Olympics in 2012 will see events being held in Wimbledon and Weymouth but it is expected that travel demand in relation to these events can be broadly accommodated within the current network capability. Extra services may need to be provided at certain times, but, for example, Wimbledon already sees high demand during the tennis fortnight so it is expected that regularly implemented service strengthening will apply. Traction power supply issues between Bournemouth and Weymouth may limit any increase in the number of electric trains which can be run during the games period.

They aren't doing anything at all with the power supplies as far as I've heard - so any extra services may have to come from FGW or charters. All the stock SWT already have will be needed to take people to London anyway...

 

[thefab444]

I wouldn't be that suprised if the 2tph Weymouth service disappears in December 2012 then. I imagine an extra workings during the Olympics will be run by FGW.

 

[387star]

Just throwing this in but maybe 444s were always intended to replace 442s
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Or at least a preferred option
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or at least a preferred option

 

[ainsworth74]

Just throwing this in but maybe 444s were always intended to replace 442s

My understanding has always been that the 444s were always intended to replace the slammers. Replacing the 442s was not on the agenda at that time.

 

[RobShipway]

What you may see is that the 2 tph instead of being five car class 444 trains, that they become 10 car trains, then all that will happen if there is capacity is an extra service per hour of a 5 car train to Bournemouth is added.

 

[MCR247]

If you are saying what I think you are saying, you will need a lot power supply upgrades and who says there is enough 444s?

 

[RobShipway]

There has been before now a few class 444's laid idle in the yard at Clapham Junction I believe even during the morning rush hour? Alternatively, you could couple any spare class 450's to the 444's as has been mentioned before in this forum.

Also, I cannot see FGW providing any extra trains into Weymouth if SWT is not able to do so. The Majority of people travelling to Weymouth is more likely to come from the London service anyway than the services provided from FGW.

 

[Juniper Driver]

West of Poole it has never been allowed to run more than a 5 car 442/444 or an 8 car Slammer/450 under normal circumstances due to power supply limitations. One of the few times this was broken was for the Southern Belle railtour when a 12 car Slammer (CIG-CIG-CEP) ran to Weymouth. This required special clearance, series notches only and careful monitoring of the ammeters on the train and the loads at the substations.

Sounds about right.

 

[MCR247]

There has been before now a few class 444's laid idle in the yard at Clapham Junction I believe even during the morning rush hour? Alternatively, you could couple any spare class 450's to the 444's as has been mentioned before in this forum.

Oh yeah, I'm sure SWT have loads of spare 450s...

 

[ainsworth74]

Alternatively, you could couple any spare class 450's to the 444's as has been mentioned before in this forum.

In addition to MCR247s point even if there are spare 450s to be had that still leaves issues with the power supply.

 

[thefab444]

The Majority of people travelling to Weymouth is more likely to come from the London service anyway than the services provided from FGW.

No reason why FGW couldn't run services from London.

 

[Aictos]

What people are forgetting is the DfT placed a tender for loco hauled trains a few months back which ought to resolve these 444 questions.

 

[jopsuk]

that tender I seem to remember being specifically for late- night services?

 

[M.R.Bells]

There has been before now a few class 444's laid idle in the yard at Clapham Junction I believe even during the morning rush hour?

If you saw a 444 in Clapham Yard during the am peak it would one that is OOS.
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Alternatively, you could couple any spare class 450's to the 444's as has been mentioned before in this forum.

It is not common to have 450's spare....

 

[swt_passenger]

that tender I seem to remember being specifically for late- night services?

Only for late night 'Intercity' services FROM London, apparently:

The Olympic Delivery Authority is seeking expressions of interest from rolling stock suppliers to provide locomotives and carriages during the 2012 Olympic Games.

The trains are required to provide late night additional capacity from any or all of the following London terminals: King’s Cross, Paddington, St Pancras and Euston.

Another point no one has mentioned about the potential for extra trains to Weymouth is the pathing on the single line section between Wool and Dorchester South.

 

[thefab444]

It's currently occupied:

1213 - 1218 Up
1233 - 1239 Up
1241 - 1248 Down
1258 - 1304 Down

So there is room for an extra path or two there.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's currently occupied:

1213 - 1218 Up
1233 - 1239 Up
1241 - 1248 Down
1258 - 1304 Down

So there is room for an extra path or two there.

Thanks, I hadn't seen the actual paths, I'd just heard of trains having to wait, but that looks as though it could only apply to the 1239 - 1241 period. I guess the easiest thing to do would be to flight three up then three down.

Still can't see much changing though - and I'd go back to earlier discussions that raised the question of whether or not Olympic sailing really is much of a spectator sport.

Cowes week is probably bigger, and closer to London, and that doesn't exactly overwhelm SWT...

 

[MrC]

Another point no one has mentioned about the potential for extra trains to Weymouth is the pathing on the single line section between Wool and Dorchester South.

I'm not sure there's much of an issue here. After all it's not that long (7 mins for a Moreton-Dorch service) and it already handles 4 tph plus the occasional sand train with long gaps in between. As it's unlikely the existing service will need to be modified much if at all for the Olympics then what's the issue (apart from failures on the single line etc)? Even if XC run down to Weymouth during the events there should be plenty of paths available as I suspect the sands will be cancelled for the duration due to the need for run-arounds at Dorch.

One area where there is a far bigger pinch point is the single line in Weymouth station throat which will be a potential restriction if it has to handle any increase in traffic (it's not unusual now for trains to be delayed for a few minutes while up & down trains cross paths). An increase in traffic could also involve a number of ECS moves to Jersey sidings if there's a need to free up platforms at Weymouth. There is a persistent rumour that this is being looked at but if NR are going to do anything as major as dualling this in time for the Olympics then they'd better get a move on

 

[Helvellyn]

SWT retired the 442s because using the 444s and (effectively) isolating the 458s to the Reading line gave them a mostly uniform semifast/express mainline fleet of Desiros.

Porterbrook apparantly also offered SWT one hell of a deal to take the 458s back in time for the start of the February 2007 franchise (to meet requirements to add more seats in part) that meant a 458 was quite a lot cheaper for SWT to operate than a 442 (owned by Angel).

It's also been said before, but with the tph to Weymouth being part of the DfT spec for the South Western franchise, there were not enough 442s to allow all services to be operated with the fleet, and as Via Bank says, a mainly uniform fleet of Desiros is a lot easier to roster in service, keeping a small subfleet of 458s on the Readings (as opposed to a small subfleet of 442s on Weymouths supplemented by some 444 diagrams).

If NSE had ordered another 4 442s (Even after Clapahm destroyed 4-REP 2002 I believe there were enough REP motors to do this) I wonder if even 28 442s would have been enough to operate an enhanced Weymouth service? If SWT had kept the 442s, I think they'd be like the FGW HST fleet interior wise, but without luggage stacks!

 

[GodAtum]

I have fond memories of riding the 444s and 450s when I was at university apart from the weekend engineering works that made the journey twice ad long.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Another reason the 458s were so cheap was that they were non-compliant with disability rules due to the small size of the PIS which the ROSCO paid to have changed as part of the deal.