Class 444s

[Juniper Driver]

444+450 combo's do turn up sometimes. There's only been two times I've seen them working together - one on a Weymouth turn and one on a Portsmouth Harbour service. Unless for some reason there is a train failure and that's all that's available, you won't see them together and even if you do see them its a case of being in the right place at the right time. I've been quite lucky to see such a pairing twice I think, but both times I've not had my camera on me.

I have worked them twice recently and ironically on one occasion the train broke down.

(Both times I worked them 450041 was involved)

Probably in all I have worked this combo less than ten times in 7 years...

 

[Matt Taylor]

I don't recall any 444/450 combos in the CWNs since around 2005 but as mentioned elsewhere they do pop up maybe once or twice a week-during the peaks most commonly.

 

[Pinza55007]

I rate these units very highly, although the seating in standard class is a little harder and firmer than I would like.1st class is very pleasant for a modern unit.

My first run on one, just after they were introduced on the Portsmouth Line, was always going to stick in my mind - 15 minutes late leaving Waterloo -on time at Havant.

It took seven minutes from closing the door at Woking to opening them at Guildford.

I suspect that whoever was driving was clearly enjoying themselves!

 

[SprinterMan]

Are there any ways in which the Class 444s are superior to the Class 442s.
I can't work out why SWt retired the 442s instead of just giving the 458s to southern.
Slightly off-topic but was the 442's 1st class the last BR compartement stock?

 

[387star]

saw some gleaming 442s a Brighton today!

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst people complain that there are too few 444s, there's nearly twice as many as there are 442s- and three times as many as there were 4REPs (though they worked with 4TCs)
total numbers:
4Rep: 15 4 car
4TC: 34 4 car
makes for 196 carriages- at 20m, 3920m total

442: 24 5 car
120 carriages, 23m = 2760m

444: 45 5 car
225 carriages, 5175m

Does this mean anything? Possibly not, though it might go some way to explain why the 444 fleet a s whole was better for SWT than the 442 fleet- much, much more long-distance suitable stock

 

[Via Bank]

Are there any ways in which the Class 444s are superior to the Class 442s.
I can't work out why SWt retired the 442s instead of just giving the 458s to southern.
Slightly off-topic but was the 442's 1st class the last BR compartement stock?

SWT retired the 442s because using the 444s and (effectively) isolating the 458s to the Reading line gave them a mostly uniform semifast/express mainline fleet of Desiros. Aside from that, they accelerate a lot faster: especially between London and Southampton, they go like the clappers.

 

[387star]

To be fair 442s will have to be replaced within the next twenty years anyway if not earlier for they are built from older parts I believe.

Personally I can't say I'm bothered about First Class compartments not being a user and the bar area was beginning to look shabby quite frankly plus attracted antisocial behaviour? I do not mind airline seats either providing leg room is good which it is on the 444s.

I think where we can learn from the 442s is found in the quietness and smoothness of the ride. I tend to ignore the seats- any seats could be placed in a 444 so it is unfair to judge them on the seating alone despite that being the main interface. I actually remember complaints the original 442 seating was uncomfortable for being too sloping?

 

[thefab444]

Whilst people complain that there are too few 444s, there's nearly twice as many as there are 442s

Bear in mind that the 444s were originally intended to replace the CIG fleet, not the 442s, so there's been a net decrease in long distance rolling stock.

 

[387star]

One question- were the 442s wider than the 444s? The seats appear to be a lot wider with bigger pull down tables too

 

[Peter Mugridge]

442s are 2.74m wide.

444s are 2.80m wide.

 

[387star]

ah thanks never knew 444s were wider
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Im planning to sample 442s from Brighton-London and I haven't heard many comments other than comparative ones regarding the original interior so I will be interested to see for myself. Are the seats about as firm as those on 444s? How's leg room?

 

[swt_passenger]

442s are 2.74m wide.

444s are 2.80m wide.

You must have some duff information there, I'm afraid. According to the carriage end labels, the 444 is 2.688m wide. If you can compare a 444 with a 450 from the front you'll see that they are significantly narrower than 450s - which are 2.80m wide. You can also see the difference by comparing the step plates at the doors, the 444's are about 2-3 cm deeper.

IIRC this is because the 444 has a longer wheelbase than what was normal for C3, being 23.6m long. The internal dimensions are however comparable to a 442, because the bodywork is not as thick overall.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ah thanks never knew 444s were wider

They aren't, see above.

 

[SprinterMan]

Do the 444s accelerate as quickly as the 350s/360s/450s what with these being lighter and having the same power?

the bar area was beginning to look shabby quite frankly plus attracted antisocial behaviour

Sorry, tad off-topic but do the ex Southern FCC 319/2s retain their bar area?

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, tad off-topic but do the ex Southern FCC 319/2s retain their bar area?

I think they've all been restored to normal condition. One of the rail mags had a report on the job last year sometime.

 

[asylumxl]

I think they've all been restored to normal condition. One of the rail mags had a report on the job last year sometime.

They've chucked in the bog standard seats used in other 319s to replace the bar area. It looks ghastly, and nobody ever sits in them, and why would you when you could have 2+2 seats with proper tables?

 

[MCR247]

Do the 444s accelerate as quickly as the 350s/360s/450s what with these being lighter and having the same power?

No, IIRC the 350 was the fastest UK EMU. This is because 450s do not run on full power and I've heard people saying 350s are slightly sluggish on DC (compared to AC) but Not sure if this applies to 450s or not....

 

[notadriver]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I find 444s slow to accelerate. It's my understanding they have the same installed power as a 450 but has an extra coach to deal with as 444s are 5 car and 450s are 4 car. I've found all dual voltage trains are a lot slower on DC than on AC.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You must have some duff information there, I'm afraid. According to the carriage end labels, the 444 is 2.688m wide. If you can compare a 444 with a 450 from the front you'll see that they are significantly narrower than 450s - which are 2.80m wide.

I quoted the data in the combined volume.

Never looked at the two units head on before. Looks like P5 simply copied over the width from the 450 to the 444?

 

[swt_passenger]

I quoted the data in the combined volume.

Never looked at the two units head on before. Looks like P5 simply copied over the width from the 450 to the 444?

I suspect that's the problem. It's a pretty reasonable assumption until you consider the units must have been ordered with the ability to go where the C3 442s went, so would be 2.74m like them.

Discussions in another forum a good few years back raised the point that the relatively minor length increase over a 442 might then require a bit taken off the width, there being no infrastructure changes.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I find 444s slow to accelerate. It's my understanding they have the same installed power as a 450 but has an extra coach to deal with as 444s are 5 car and 450s are 4 car. I've found all dual voltage trains are a lot slower on DC than on AC.

On DC, as I understand it they are all limited by the capability of the DC supply system. Although the Southern Power Supply Upgrade project is still ongoing, it hasn't been designed to allow the modern DC units (ie Desiros and Electrostars) to run without limits being applied anyway.

 

[Juniper Driver]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I find 444s slow to accelerate. It's my understanding they have the same installed power as a 450 but has an extra coach to deal with as 444s are 5 car and 450s are 4 car. I've found all dual voltage trains are a lot slower on DC than on AC.

If it hasn't already been said,these units are not running to full capacity and I don't know when they will be.Something to do with substations or lack of?

 

[MCR247]

If they ran on full power, they would use to much juice, meaning there wouldn't be enough for other units

 

[MrC]

If it hasn't already been said,these units are not running to full capacity and I don't know when they will be.Something to do with substations or lack of?

The substations and TP huts west of Branksome haven't been touched and I wonder if they ever will be. Basically if the TOC has found they can run services to time on existing and proven timetables on reduced power then why change things if all they'll get in return is an increase in NR track access charges and Siemens servicing bills?

 

[Juniper Driver]

The substations and TP huts west of Branksome haven't been touched and I wonder if they ever will be. Basically if the TOC has found they can run services to time on existing and proven timetables on reduced power then why change things if all they'll get in return is an increase in NR track access charges and Siemens servicing bills?

I have seen the odd new one being put in here and there.(not past Branksome though)

Remember the aircon also takes a bit up.Not as much as the motors obviously.

They don't generally run ten cars past Poole though do they?

Not without special permission anyway.AFAIK

 

[TGV]

No, IIRC the 350 was the fastest UK EMU. This is because 450s do not run on full power and I've heard people saying 350s are slightly sluggish on DC (compared to AC) but Not sure if this applies to 450s or not....

I wasn't blown away by the 350s acceleration. Don't seem anywhere near as fast off the mark as a 365 - which has 350hp more and 20t lighter!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Ta4seRYu8

0-50mph in 35 seconds.

395 would probably beat that of course, but not by as much as you think. For their 15 years of age, the 365 are still impressively fast.

 

[Pumbaa]

Don't worry - they are, the 350/2 to be precise. A /1 is a few seconds slower to 100 overall. All verified by Roger Ford/Tony Miles.

 

[wibble]

They don't generally run ten cars past Poole though do they?

Not without special permission anyway.AFAIK

There are trains starting from Poole which are booked as 10 cars to Waterloo but the stock will probably come from the depot into service. e.g. 0500, 0545 and 0755 Poole - Waterloo.

There's very little demand to run more than one unit west of Bournemouth....

 

[Juniper Driver]

There are trains starting from Poole which are booked as 10 cars to Waterloo but the stock will probably come from the depot into service. e.g. 0500, 0545 and 0755 Poole - Waterloo.

There's very little demand to run more than one unit west of Bournemouth....

If they ran a ten past Poole it would probably be on a special.

 

[thefab444]

There's very little demand to run more than one unit west of Bournemouth....

Indeed, in fact it's questionable whether the half hourly Weymouth service is worth it outside of peak times (and possibly weekends in the summer), when you consider the rolling stock/service pattern problems it causes. There's a case for cutting the existing Weymouth semi-fast service back to Wareham, calling additionally at Branksome and Parkstone, and replacing the Branksome and Parkstone calls with Wool, Moreton and Upwey calls on the Weymouth fast service. You could easily maintain the current 2h38 Waterloo - Weymouth fast timing by removing a minute or two of slack.

 

[ChrisCooper]

West of Poole it has never been allowed to run more than a 5 car 442/444 or an 8 car Slammer/450 under normal circumstances due to power supply limitations. One of the few times this was broken was for the Southern Belle railtour when a 12 car Slammer (CIG-CIG-CEP) ran to Weymouth. This required special clearance, series notches only and careful monitoring of the ammeters on the train and the loads at the substations.