Class 444

[Railway Andrew]

I have been praising these units, without actually riding on them, and based on others views. I put this right last week, and found that they were exceptional trains.

I am hoping to start a crusade to get a 25kv overhead version, presumably class 344 for these lines especially, for the Mancheater - Scotland service, where the class 185, with 1/3 and 2/3 door opening does not promote an inter city ambience, and spends the majority of its journey under the wires.

To avoid the very expensive electrification of the Bolton and Chorley route, as an interim method, could I suggest wiring the original line to Golborne and to the WCML. Without getting my data base out, I think I am right in saying that there are only two expensive bridge raisings close into the city, with only another 2 or 3 small ones.
Off the top of my unreliable head I would reckon about £ 3 to £ 5 million is all that is needed to connect the Manchester 'branch' of the WCML to the main trunk.
Such a link would provide a first bite at a Pendolino diversion

I would be interested in hearing the comments of drivers of 444's.
The roof profile of class 444 have the flat profile to seat the pantograph, and related equipment.

Regards Andrew

 

[jopsuk]

There's certainly been proposals to use pantograph-fitted 444s to replace the 90s + mark 3s + DVTs used on the London-Norwich service.

 

[90019]

I would be interested in hearing the comments of drivers of 444's.
The roof profile of class 444 have the flat profile to seat the pantograph, and related equipment.

IIRC, the 444s can be converted to run off 25kV OHLE rather than the 750V 3rd rail, which is why they have the pantograph well on one of the coaches (The TSRMB, I think).

 

[A60K]

To avoid the very expensive electrification of the Bolton and Chorley route, as an interim method, could I suggest wiring the original line to Golborne and to the WCML. Without getting my data base out, I think I am right in saying that there are only two expensive bridge raisings close into the city, with only another 2 or 3 small ones.
Off the top of my unreliable head I would reckon about £ 3 to £ 5 million is all that is needed to connect the Manchester 'branch' of the WCML to the main trunk.
Such a link would provide a first bite at a Pendolino diversion

I think if you can submit an offer to do that work for £5m to Network Rail they would bite your hand off



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IIRC, the 444s can be converted to run off 25kV OHLE rather than the 750V 3rd rail, which is why they have the pantograph well on one of the coaches (The TSRMB, I think).

Yes - all DC units built in the last ten years have (at the least) passive provision for AC equipment. It's unlikely much stock will ever have AC added, but it does make it a relatively trivial job compared to (say) converting a 4-EPB. The most likely addition of AC equipment would be to cover more dual-voltage services on the WLL, or with the electrification of Great Western routes or Basingstoke-Exeter.

 

[jv3531]

One of the ideal candidates for AC services could be a varient of the 350/1 which was in effect the AC version. Don't forget that when LM ordered the 350/2s, they were designed for 3+2 layout which in was vertually identical to a 450 inner suburban classification. I must say that I do prefer the desiro fleet to the other varients available, although I have not been on a 185 yet. Having used the other desiro variants though, am impressed with whats been done. Its nice to see they do still make trains where the majority of seats have some sort of window view - and more to the point, tables which line up too!!!

 

[Aictos]

I think if you can submit an offer to do that work for £5m to Network Rail they would bite your hand off



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes - all DC units built in the last ten years have (at the least) passive provision for AC equipment. It's unlikely much stock will ever have AC added, but it does make it a relatively trivial job compared to (say) converting a 4-EPB. The most likely addition of AC equipment would be to cover more dual-voltage services on the WLL, or with the electrification of Great Western routes or Basingstoke-Exeter.

I think any TOC would bite your hand off if you were to include a similar price for new trains as well!

Anyway, back to the standing requirement for all new stock in the Network South East region, although they might well be used currently on the 3rd rail system, they have to be prepared and ready for future adaption to run off the 25 Kv AC OHL or run dual voltage which is why 444s, 450s etc...all have pantograph wells so can be easily converted to run off the OHL as well if needed.

Talking of which, Network Rail want to electrify the route between Basingstoke and Exeter on the OHL system which if I'm right and I don't travel on the route at all but is served by SWT's 159s?

So with a bit of tinkering to their 444s, could see the service go from 159s to 444s after changing power sources at Basingstoke from the 3rd rail to the OHL.

Although I would rather install 3rd rail all the way to Exeter, NR prefer OHL.

Otherwise, it means even more new stock that is dual voltage ready.

 

[33011]

I have been praising these units, without actually riding on them, and based on others views. I put this right last week, and found that they were exceptional trains.

I am hoping to start a crusade to get a 25kv overhead version, presumably class 344 for these lines especially, for the Mancheater - Scotland service, where the class 185, with 1/3 and 2/3 door opening does not promote an inter city ambience, and spends the majority of its journey under the wires.

To avoid the very expensive electrification of the Bolton and Chorley route, as an interim method, could I suggest wiring the original line to Golborne and to the WCML. Without getting my data base out, I think I am right in saying that there are only two expensive bridge raisings close into the city, with only another 2 or 3 small ones.
Off the top of my unreliable head I would reckon about £ 3 to £ 5 million is all that is needed to connect the Manchester 'branch' of the WCML to the main trunk.
Such a link would provide a first bite at a Pendolino diversion

I would be interested in hearing the comments of drivers of 444's.
The roof profile of class 444 have the flat profile to seat the pantograph, and related equipment.

Regards Andrew

Hi Andrew.I have plenty of experience of travelling on 444's and they are not a patch on the 442's they replaced.They are however much better than the 450.As for the roof profile of having a place for a pantagraph i do believe most if not all modern EMU's have these.If you want to start a crusade then how about more Mk3's maybe an old design now but is everything a coach should be for long distance and 100% better than any modern day vehicles

Marv

 

[thefab444]

I disagree.

 

[33011]

I disagree.

Which part?

 

[paul1609]

My experience of 444s is mainly on the Portsmouth Line where they are much slower than the slam door stock they replaced. The ride is also very poor. I much prefer the Electro star to any of the desiro family especially when the seating is in the 2+2 with tables layout. The main letdown of the 377s to me is the lack of proper first class accomodation but apparently that is being examined now Govia have retained the franchise/

 

[SqUaShIe P]

I w nt on a 444 for the first time the other day and it was a lovely experience. I've been wanting to go on one for some time because someone told me ages ago that we could possibly be getting them to to replace our 90s and mk.IIIs on london to norwich and I think if they were converted to 25k ac, they would be a perfect replacement.

 

[johnb]

My experience of 444s is mainly on the Portsmouth Line where they are much slower than the slam door stock they replaced. The ride is also very poor. I much prefer the Electro star to any of the desiro family especially when the seating is in the 2+2 with tables layout. The main letdown of the 377s to me is the lack of proper first class accomodation but apparently that is being examined now Govia have retained the franchise/

Apart from the fact that the 444s didn't replace slam-door stock (they replaced 442s), and aren't slower than 442s or slam-door stock (well, maybe a 4REP on its own ), spot on.

 

[thefab444]

That's complete rubbish; the 444s were ordered to replace, predominantly, the CEP/CIG and BEP/BIG units. It's only in the last few years that they were used to replace the 442s on Weymouth services.

I can't remember when the last 442 diagram on the Portsmouth line finished, but it was a good many years ago, before the 444s were even ordered I should think.

 

[Bayum]

It wasn't that long ago really... In all fairness... Last year, year before last ?

 

[thefab444]

If you mean the first "Last Day of Wessex Electrics" then yes, there was a one off diagram from Fratton to Waterloo, but that was not a booked working. I will, however, retract my previous statement. Upon consulting the 2003 CWN, I've noticed handful of trains booked for 442s on the Portsmouth Direct Line, very much like the current situation with 444s to Alton. That said, 444s started passenger ops in 2004.

Going back to the age old "Why do 377s have so many more hellfire family friendly tables than 444s"; I don't see what the fuss is with tables... if it means more seats then providing less tables is only a good thing. Sure it will **** off a few families, but I doubt it will majorly affect their decision to travel by train - but being forced to stand up will!

 

[fgwrich]

I second anyone who says the 442's are far superior to the 444's...while i think the 444's arnt to bad, nothing beats the quite and very comfortable ride the 442 offerd, plus you had a decent buffet car on the 442's when they were with SWT( and on my line for that matter) whereas the 444's...The only Buffet space they have is more of a trolley stoage area with a counter, very small, very cramped and rarley open and in use...

And now, becasue the 442's were used on the Weymouth & Poole services, with the 444's on the Portsmouth Harbour services, the 444's are now working to Weymouth, with 450's working to Poole, Portsmouth Harbour and everywhere else...

And why do the desiros have to rock from side to side so much?

Plus, has anyone but me noticed how noisey the 444's are becoming due to Wheelflats...

Personally, i still find that no modern EMU beats the 442's as they were with South West Trains...for not just ride quility but comfort and interior ambiance...just a pity that they dont look anything like the above anymore...

 

[LondonLarry]

I prefer the 444s. They're much roomier and feel far more spacious as the seats aren't so deep. The aircon never seemed to work on 442s - or at least you dodn't notice it! At least you notice the aircon on a 444 (yes, I know you can hear it too, but I can't stand the deathly silence of 442s. It's nice to have a bity of a hum in the background)

Having a buffet car is a waste of space - especially when you have 2 on a 10 car service. If you speak to commuters (who are the primary travellers on SWT) they would rather have a seat on their commute than a nice buffet area.

I don't see what the issue of mixing 444s/450s being used on the same route - British Rail died years ago. The industry and passenger demands have changed. The stock will go where it's needed most, and yes, this does mean that some peak longer distance peak services will be formed of higher seating density stock.

 

[Matt Taylor]

So why are peak hour Woking stoppers and Alton services being run by 444s while off peak Pompey services are frequently 450s.

1015 Pompey-Waterloo=4 car 450, that is beyond ridiculous.

 

[thefab444]

That service is booked for 5 444 on weekdays and 8 450 on Saturdays.

 

[LondonLarry]

So why are peak hour Woking stoppers and Alton services being run by 444s while off peak Pompey services are frequently 450s.

1015 Pompey-Waterloo=4 car 450, that is beyond ridiculous.

I would say it was common sense to put the stock where it's needed most. I thought businesses aimed to provide a greater availability of their product when demand is highest...