Class 442s

[87015]

There are no Watford-Brighton services... Given the M.Keynes-Croydon services are crush loaded in the rush hour and often full and standing off-peak downgrading to a 3-car unit wouldn't be pretty aswell as being unable to keep time (probably) on the WCML north of Watford.

Using 313s (if no 377s available) for an hourly Watford-Clapham shuttle alongside the 377 M.Keynes-E.Croydon would be something I'd like to see though.

 

[RobShipway]

I can see the 313's settling in quite well to do the Brighton - Seaford services or other short services, but I cannot see them being used on longer distance services.

With regards to using class 442 trains on the Brighton Line, this is only going to be short term until Southern gets the 377/5 trains back from FCC so enjoy it while you can.

 

[SWT Driver]

I think you'll find that they'll be there for the foreseeable future due to manufacturing & technical problems with the new 377's.

Even then they'll probably displace the 460's and the GatEx service will then be formed exclusively of 442 stock.

I can't wait to see their faces when a 442 does a 90 or 100mph wheelspin! Whoo Hoo!

 

[Fincra5]

That's certainly different to the company view who are only expecting about 8 to come our way!

Which if only a handful go to Southern that still leaves quite a lot in store.

But anyway, couldn't the SouthEastern stored 508s go to Southern instead as they're DC only and there's no OHL that way which should be more then enough for Southern so all the 313s come back home,

South Eastern still use most of the 508s on wednesday

"Southeastern placed its remaining fleet of Class 508s in store in December 2008. Although, the 6 remaining in warm store, these units run 4 times every Wednesday:

> 1 x 508 - Gillingham (GLM)-Battersea Stewarts Lane (BSL) (AM)
> 3 x 508 - BSL-GLM (AM)
> 3 x 508 - GLM-BSL (PM)
> 1 x 508 - BSL-GLM

for the purposes of routine maintenance and the upkeep of mileages."

However they would be better in use by southern rather than 313s. If FCC are only getting 8 and southern 6 (or so), that does leave a few instorage yh.

I think concerning the 508s that they may go to Mersey Rail.

 

[Helvellyn]

Moving the 508s would make sense, as they are on lease to a GoVia franchise (Southeastern.) but are effectively stored, with no diagrammed work. If they were moved to Southern at least then they'd be getting regular use. Guess we'll have to see what moves where!

I'd have thought it might actually make more sense to use the 508s and 313s on the South London metro services rather than reconfigure the 377/3s - but since when does common sense come into things on the railway?

 

[Fincra5]

Moving the 508s would make sense, as they are on lease to a GoVia franchise (Southeastern.) but are effectively stored, with no diagrammed work. If they were moved to Southern at least then they'd be getting regular use. Guess we'll have to see what moves where!

I'd have thought it might actually make more sense to use the 508s and 313s on the South London metro services rather than reconfigure the 377/3s - but since when does common sense come into things on the railway?

I think that it may have something to do with the age of the trains. London Has to have all new trains before anywhere else, it seems. The 313s and 508s may be unreliable which could be bad on very busy south london lines.

 

[MCR247]

And what would the 508s and 313s work with to get 10 coaches?

 

[Fincra5]

And what would the 508s and 313s work with to get 10 coaches?

true, they would only be able to work with class 455s which already have other duties.

 

[SWT Driver]

They can always have the 508 trailers from SWT's 455/7's they either cook you or freeze you to death... No medium, just extremes.
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true, they would only be able to work with class 455s which already have other duties.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but they can't work with 455's!

455's have 42pin control jumpers, whereas 313's & 508's have boxes under the tightlock coupler heads.

 

[Fincra5]

They can always have the 508 trailers from SWT's 455/7's they either cook you or freeze you to death... No medium, just extremes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry to rain on your parade, but they can't work with 455's!

455's have 42pin control jumpers, whereas 313's & 508's have boxes under the tightlock coupler heads.

Oh yea forgot about that

Have to admit they are quite "tidy" trains, no jumper cables sticking out.

 

[SWT Driver]

No need to rub it in, I know 455's are ugly, not quite as ugly as 458 though.

 

[Drsatan]

Or the 456s for that matter. Sorry for my earlier ignorance: I thought the Watford-Brighton services still ran and I didn't know that they didn't have toilets. Looked on Wikipedia and turns out they only have a top speed of 75 mph so they couldn't keep time on the WCML north of Watford.

Given their low maximum speed and lack of performance, they could work Brighton - Seaford & Brighton - Worthing locals, and possibly in multiple on some of Southern's suburban lines. Alternatively, a couple could be transferred to SWT for use on the Lymington branch. That line is currently worked by two 3CIGs which are scheduled to be withdrawn and replaced by a 158. Instead, a 313/508 could be used - their lack of toilets wouldn't be a problem since the Brockenhurst - Lymington journey only takes about 10 minutes. Maintenance shouldn't be problematic because I think they share most of their components with the 455s.

 

[SWT Driver]

The use of Cl.313, 455/6, 508 is simply a non starter for the simple reason that for these areas: Portsmouth/Southampton/Brockenhurst-Lymington/Bournemouth they are non standard traction.

They're too slow as well being limited to 75mph, they'd just get in the way of other mainline services.

These units use variants of tightlock couplers, whereas everything else uses Dellner or Scharfenberg (220/221), so if one of those units were to fail on the mainline going to/from Bournemouth to/from Brockenhurst or even across between Southampton & Portsmouth for local services there, there would be unmitigated chaos!

Nothing can assist them except within their own class, without the use of an emergency coupling adaptor, which cannot be fitted by traincrew as they're extremely heavy & cumbersome to use.

Wimbledon is at least 70 miles away and so if something went seriously wrong is a damned long way & wait for someone to come and attend to attempt to fix it!

Then you have traincrew training costs to factor in as well, Bournemouth depot has some drivers who're ex-Salisbury and have retained the traction knowledge, so training costs will be minimal, compared to teaching them the full works (conversion) that would be required for the use of Cl.313, 455/6, 508's.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They can always have the 508 trailers from SWT's 455/7's they either cook you or freeze you to death... No medium, just extremes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry to rain on your parade, but they can't work with 455's!

455's have 42pin control jumpers, whereas 313's & 508's have boxes under the tightlock coupler heads.

Must admit I forgot about that as well.

 

[RobShipway]

The use of Cl.313, 455/6, 508 is simply a non starter for the simple reason that for these areas: Portsmouth/Southampton/Brockenhurst-Lymington/Bournemouth they are non standard traction.

They're too slow as well being limited to 75mph, they'd just get in the way of other mainline services.

These units use variants of tightlock couplers, whereas everything else uses Dellner or Scharfenberg (220/221), so if one of those units were to fail on the mainline going to/from Bournemouth to/from Brockenhurst or even across between Southampton & Portsmouth for local services there, there would be unmitigated chaos!

Nothing can assist them except within their own class, without the use of an emergency coupling adaptor, which cannot be fitted by traincrew as they're extremely heavy & cumbersome to use.

Wimbledon is at least 70 miles away and so if something went seriously wrong is a damned long way & wait for someone to come and attend to attempt to fix it!

Then you have traincrew training costs to factor in as well, Bournemouth depot has some drivers who're ex-Salisbury and have retained the traction knowledge, so training costs will be minimal, compared to teaching them the full works (conversion) that would be required for the use of Cl.313, 455/6, 508's.

The same issue will be seen if the trains came to the Southern Franchise as all the trains, accept maybe the class 442's are Dellener couplers.

 

[Fincra5]

The 442s arent fitted with dellener couplers. They look like tight-lock.

 

[AlexS]

They use something call a drophead buckeye.

The genesis of the autocoupler - except it has no electrical connections, hence the jumpers and cables.

 

[SWT Driver]

442's are fitted with good old fashioned buckeye couplers, no fancy tightlocks, no fancy electrical coupler boxes.

Nice, simple and efficient.

 

[Thewanderer]

442's are fitted with good old fashioned buckeye couplers, no fancy tightlocks, no fancy electrical coupler boxes.

Nice, simple and efficient.

hear hear to that!

 

[Fincra5]

except if you actaully want to connect the trains electronically...

 

[Helvellyn]

except if you actaully want to connect the trains electronically...

Which is why he said simple - just connect the unit mechanically, then the brake pipes and multipe-pin connector cable and away you go.

Also, you may not be aware but when built the 442s were capable of being hauled by ETH fitted diesel locomotives (for diversionary purposes), and thus needed couplers that could do that. They can also be hauled/propelled by Class 33/1 and 73 locomotives. I recall in the last months of SWT service seeing a 5-car arrive at Waterloo being hauled by 'BoB' (73109) duee a failed speedo on the 442.

 

[fgwrich]

Also, you may not be aware but when built the 442s were capable of being hauled by ETH fitted diesel locomotives (for diversionary purposes), and thus needed couplers that could do that. They can also be hauled/propelled by Class 33/1 and 73 locomotives. I recall in the last months of SWT service seeing a 5-car arrive at Waterloo being hauled by 'BoB' (73109) duee a failed speedo on the 442.

Also something SWT could do with when Southampton Centrals tunnel is closed this Christmas...Of course if they still had the 442s & 73s, they could then divert the service up the salisbury line and down via romsey to sotton central to continue on from there...nowadays its all about terminating and bussing on from there...

 

[starrymarkb]

But that still wouldn't allow the 450/444 services to run around the blockade. Remember that there were a lot of services the 442's didn't run

 

[2030720310]

But at least some could have run with 442s rather than terminating absolutely everything at Southampton Central

Do SWT have any spare 158s/159s that they could use, at least from like Southampton - Eastleigh/Basingstoke?

 

[SWT Driver]

It's not the stock availability that's going to be the problem, it's going to be traincrew route/traction knowledge + hours.

Another factor is the amount of trains that you can put through the section of line between Southampton (Redbridge) & Laverstock junctions, also between Laverstock & Worting Junction.

Having only worked the Nursling line twice in my career, I can't remember how long the signal sections are, but I think they're quite lengthy in places.

 

[MCR247]

On MSTS the signals are spaced quite far apart from Worting Junc - Salisbury & Salisbury - Southampton via Redbridge. I think most were between 1.0 miles and 1.5 or something

 

[SWT Driver]

There's a world of difference between a computer simulation & the real thing!

 

[MCR247]

Yeah I know, but it cant be miles wrong can it?

 

[starrymarkb]

yes - David Corfield (the authour of Dorset Coast) has stated that limits and signalling are representative but largely fictional. He is only an amatuer and is primarily working from Quail

 

[Drsatan]

Wouldn't it be possible to fit a few 73s with Dellner couplers for operation with class 444s/450s