Class 442 the future.

[rmt4ever]

Gatwick Express premium ticketing is a pet peeve of mine. Heathrow Express I can just about understand because the railway between Airport Junction and Heathrow is owned by BAA, but GatEx is only about 3 minutes faster than the Southern services that only stop at ECR and CLJ. Given that they're operated by the same TOC it feels like it's just ripping off the uninformed. The Stansted Express has no premium ticketing and that seems to cope fine.

If Londoners could use the Gatwick Express but paid for boundary x tickets and could use railcard discounts maybe it'd pick up more of the airport traveller market that it's supposed to cater to.

I really really don't mind at because you get a dedicated airport train. If it was an evening peak service out of Victoria to LGW that stopped at intermediate stations it would of course be full of commuters. So to have a dedicated non stop airport train is worth paying the premium. However one would expect rolling stock that would match the expectations of a dedicated airport express service ! !

 

[Emblematic]

Weight would be an issue with the Transformer (there is a reason most EMUs have the pan & transformer on a trailer)

Transformer would be around 5 tonnes for this power. Possibly save around 2 tonnes on the traction motors replaced by AC. Add the pantograph, VCB, other HV components, AC control package. Remove resistance grids, camshaft controls. Overall I think it would result in an increase in overall mass, with a decrease in unsprung axle loading. Also, how much weight did the last refurb gain or lose with the pantry area removal?
Of course it's not an ideal solution, none of these proposed traction upgrades are, but something like this may just appear as a cheaper option than 24 new trains.

 

[route:oxford]

I once heard some American visitors talking in amazement about how bad the train is.

I guess that's one American who hasn't found himself on the 5A Dulles metro bus...

Fortunately they are finally sorting out a metro connection to Washington.

 

[antharro]

Without wanting to read this whole subject and posts, I have used the GatEx a few times recently, it's a national disgrace !! It is one of the first things tourists and visitors see of London and it doesn't give a good impression at all especially compared with HEX trains.

The vestibules are creaky and noisy the carriages are old and tired looking. I once heard some American visitors talking in amazement about how bad the train is.

It's shameful that newer units were dismissed from this service in order to put these things on! Shocking..

When are they going ? What will we get instead? .. Sooner the better I think

I take it you never travelled on these trains during their time with South West Trains. At one time they were premium express trains, fast and comfortable. Thanks to a series of (in my opinion) very bad decisions, they've been transformed into less than comfortable trains that are entirely unsuitable for the route they're on and certainly not a "premium" airport service. Their age doesn't help them now but a thorough refurbishment and redeployment onto another line (*cough*Weymouth*cough) would help. As would getting the GatEx some appropriate trains, which is already in-hand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course it's not an ideal solution, none of these proposed traction upgrades are, but something like this may just appear as a cheaper option than 24 new trains.

If a traction upgrade took place (along with fitting OHLE equipment), would it be a possible option to fit motors to one of the other carriages? It's my understanding that this would help acceleration and traction in poor conditions.

 

[Emblematic]

I take it you never travelled on these trains during their time with South West Trains. At one time they were premium express trains, fast and comfortable. Thanks to a series of (in my opinion) very bad decisions, they've been transformed into less than comfortable trains that are entirely unsuitable for the route they're on and certainly not a "premium" airport service. Their age doesn't help them now but a thorough refurbishment and redeployment onto another line (*cough*Weymouth*cough) would help. As would getting the GatEx some appropriate trains, which is already in-hand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If a traction upgrade took place (along with fitting OHLE equipment), would it be a possible option to fit motors to one of the other carriages? It's my understanding that this would help acceleration and traction in poor conditions.

They were outstanding when they first arrived on NSE. Wonderfully smooth and quiet, as you would expect for an inter-city Mk3 but absolutely not what you had come to expect on any Southern EMU. Should have been left as they were.
No doubt you could move the motors elsewhere, but why would you? Traction may not be the the best but these units have managed until now, and just changing the motors to AC will make a difference. To improve things further you will need to run motors on more axles, which means sourcing additional motor bogies, and that plus the engineering around it would make it expensive without really making the units more worthwhile to an operator.
Mentioning traction upgrades, is there any news as to what's happening with the 455 project? I thought the first unit was supposed to be completed and on test by now? I understand the main benefit is reduced time on depot to make room for the five-car 458s - so no need to rush! I'm just interested to find out the technical details and see how they perform.

 

[antharro]

Should have been left as they were.

Totally agreed. On a slight tangent; I was in touch with a couple of members of the Network SouthEast Railway Society back when the 442s were withdrawn from SWT metals. They had approached Angel Trains with a view to purchasing a 442 and weren't turned away (at first). They were planning on restoring it back to original NSE specification. I only ever travelled on them in their SWT livery, but I think the NSE livery suited them well and would very much like to see at least one preserved and restored to that specification.

On fitting motors to the other carriages; I would do it simply for reasons of better adhesion and acceleration. I understand that modern AC motors are lighter and more powerful than older DC motors, so I would have thought that increasing the power but only making it available to one single carriage would cause wheelslip/adhesion problems. Spreading motors throughout the train should make for better adhesion, meaning that power increase can be used effectively. Of course I could be entirely wrong here.

As for the 455s, I'm sure there was a thread around here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Hopefully their traction refit will cause SWT fewer problems than the 458/5 project!

 

[Mikey C]

I really really don't mind at because you get a dedicated airport train. If it was an evening peak service out of Victoria to LGW that stopped at intermediate stations it would of course be full of commuters. So to have a dedicated non stop airport train is worth paying the premium. However one would expect rolling stock that would match the expectations of a dedicated airport express service ! !

But then during the rush hour they are extended to Brighton anyway, with normal fares (including railcard discounts) providing you go past Gatwick!

 

[jrleighton]

Other Mark 3 derived EMUs have the pantograph, electrical equipment and the traction motors all on the same vehicle. Classes 319, 321, 317, etc..
Is it because of the higher power rating (as it's a 5-car EMU, not 4 car - and longer vehicles) that means that all of the gear would be too heavy for one vehicle?
Surely it wouldn't be too much of a bother to convert a 442 to AC even so. The two traction motor bogies can simply be swapped with the nearest trailer bogies from the two vehicles either side of the middle vehicle, plus a few cables. Can't be that much of an additional expense.
Just curious as to why a conversion to AC seems to be so questioned.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do the traction motors necessarily have to been on the same coach as the pantograph as the 350s have the traction motors on a seperate coach from the pantograph. Unless they've been altered the 3rd rail pickups on the 442s are on all coaches except the motor coach

 

[Emblematic]

Yes you could switch the motor bogies to another coach, but if you only have four motors then all it does is even out the weight distribution a little - but your traction gets worse as it's now no longer under the heaviest vehicle, and tractive effort is limited to friction times weight. For a new vehicle design, we would counter this by motoring more axles, with many advantages - smaller motors, so lighter bogies and lower dynamic track forces, greater percentage of the total train weight adding to adhesion, greater percentage of the axles available for regenerative braking. However, for our 442s to get any work done on them at all, we need this to be very affordable - so the minimum work done to get reliability for continued use on DC, or a low-cost AC conversion to be used elsewhere.
As I mentioned, the AC motors themselves will help improve traction - not only from higher power/smaller size, but the AC motor and control system are fundamentally different. Net result is much better adhesion and control, particularly when rail conditions are poor. There's a good comparison of AC vs DC here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for the 455s, I'm sure there was a thread around here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. Hopefully their traction refit will cause SWT fewer problems than the 458/5 project!

I've seen mention of it in various threads, but no definite information - maybe they've delayed it until the 456s are all back in red, and they have more 458s converted (on these, you have to hope that the 458+1 conversions go better than the 460-3 ones!) Once it gets going I'm sure we will hear, I know SWT are just after less time on depot and maybe some energy saving, but I'm more interested in how the units will run!

 

[JamesRowden]

My radical idea would be to scrap the present 442 motor coaches and replace them with new AC motor coaches. I think that they could then replace the class 90 loco hauled stock on the London-Norwich services. Just an idea, it might be better value to just build some new trains.

 

[Olaf]

I expect that they have no future after they are replaced on the Gatwick Express Services; it would not be cost effective, they would be technical oddities, and a project without a home. Unless there is a role found for all or part of this fleet that would not require any more work than is deemed cost effective, then I expect they will be decommissioned.

However, inline with minimising costs for Northern services, and what northers seem to claim is prejudice against them, could they form the basis of the HS fleet for HS3?

 

[phil beard]

I expect that they have no future after they are replaced on the Gatwick Express Services; it would not be cost effective, they would be technical oddities, and a project without a home. Unless there is a role found for all or part of this fleet that would not require any more work than is deemed cost effective, then I expect they will be decommissioned.

However, inline with minimising costs for Northern services, and what northers seem to claim is prejudice against them, could they form the basis of the HS fleet for HS3?

Why not just leave them where they are on the Vic - Brighton express services and run them more often. I frequently see 377s used in their place.

 

[BestWestern]

Surely the most inappropriate stock Southern currently operate are the 313s; how many do they have? If there is any potential to retain the Wessex fleet on Btn-Vic runs or wherever, freeing up something else for the Coastway, then that would seem a reasonable suggestion surely? It seems a crime to be cutting up 442s while prehistoric 313s continue to roam the south coast!

Incidentally, there have been fire-related dramas on the 313s as well have there not? Did that occur on LOROL as well? Or prhaps it's a Southern speciality!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Surely the most inappropriate stock Southern currently operate are the 313s; how many do they have? If there is any potential to retain the Wessex fleet on Btn-Vic runs or wherever, freeing up something else for the Coastway, then that would seem a reasonable suggestion surely? It seems a crime to be cutting up 442s while prehistoric 313s continue to roam the south coast!

To do that they'd have to at the absolute minimum replace the traction motors, the rest of the traction package might not necessarily be compatible with the new traction motors should might also need replacing.

 

[Mikey C]

Surely the most inappropriate stock Southern currently operate are the 313s; how many do they have? If there is any potential to retain the Wessex fleet on Btn-Vic runs or wherever, freeing up something else for the Coastway, then that would seem a reasonable suggestion surely? It seems a crime to be cutting up 442s while prehistoric 313s continue to roam the south coast!

Incidentally, there have been fire-related dramas on the 313s as well have there not? Did that occur on LOROL as well? Or prhaps it's a Southern speciality!

Apart from the lack of toilets, the Coastway 313s have been very nicely refurbished inside. Quite smart outside too. Being dual voltage I suppose they could be transferred elsewhere with the pantograph reinstalled?

 

[BestWestern]

Indeed, perhaps 'the north' could make use of them!? Or even SWT, they are on a never ending hunt for further capacity it seems. If one was to use frightening doses of common sense and ingenuity, you might even suggest also deploying the 442s to run a decent express service along the Coastway, actually providing a decent journey time to link the south coast's biggest cities instead of the suicide-inducing crawl one currently has to suffer. Perhaps Portsmouth-Havant-Barnham-Chichester-Worthing-Brighton, and then maybe even onwards to Eastbourne or something. Or start it from Southampton and run the ex-Pompey as the stopper. Electrostar on the slows, Wessex on the express (make use of first class flows), 313s to someone else (if they want them). This would then allow FGW to withdraw it's twice daily oddity of a service and do something else with the stock. Just a thought. Now await 1,001 reasons why such an outrageous thing could never possibly happen....!

 

[LBSCR Times]

Perhaps Portsmouth-Havant-Barnham-Chichester-Worthing-Brighton, and then maybe even onwards to Eastbourne or something.

Now await 1,001 reasons why such an outrageous thing could never possibly happen....!

4 cars only west to east at Brighton, via Platform 3......

1000 reasons to go!!

 

[TEW]

Surely the most inappropriate stock Southern currently operate are the 313s; how many do they have? If there is any potential to retain the Wessex fleet on Btn-Vic runs or wherever, freeing up something else for the Coastway, then that would seem a reasonable suggestion surely? It seems a crime to be cutting up 442s while prehistoric 313s continue to roam the south coast!

Incidentally, there have been fire-related dramas on the 313s as well have there not? Did that occur on LOROL as well? Or prhaps it's a Southern speciality!

I'd say the 313s are pretty good for a lot of the services they run. Brighton-Hove/West Worthing, Brighton-Lewes/Seaford, Littlehampton-Bognor Regis/Portsmouth & Southsea and Barnham-Bognor Regis are all relatively short distance services with frequent stops and you don't really need anything more luxurious than 313s. If you could free up a small number of 377s to replace the 313s on Portsmouth Harbour-Brighton ones that would good, as that's the one route which is probably a bit long for a 313 with no toilet. As stated above by others the Southern 313s have received a good quality refurbishment and they are much nicer than the FCC units or than they were with Silverlink/London Overground.

 

[antharro]

I really don't see 442s replacing 313s in their current duties. They are designed for completely different journeys, and the 313s run the Coastway services well enough. I figured they would be left there to work out their final years to retirement.

I can see the sense in moving the 313s elsewhere, particularly as they're dual voltage, but given the refurbishment they've just been through, I cannot see Southern wanting to let them go. Plus the overhead equipment was removed when they were refurbed for Coastway services.

I also cannot see any point in scrapping the current motor carriage and building new. Aside from the fact that 24 unique carriages would need to be built, they would have to be Mk3 compatible, and the Mk3 is now an old design. A newer design could be used with whatever modifications needed to make them Mk3 compatible, but I cannot see that it would make financial sense to invest that kind of money. Not a good return on investment in my opinion.

I think the most sensible thing would be for the existing traction equipment to be evaluated. If it really is totally knackered then replacing them should be looked at. Conversion to AC could be considered at the same time. As has been pointed out, the motor carriages are of a heavier construction so may well be able to handle the necessary equipment. If the existing motors can be they can be overhauled and reused then so be it - unless conversion to AC is preferred, in which case the evaluation is not required in the first place.

Conversion to AC or dual voltage would be good to see, but I would certainly miss the sound of EE motors screaming down the Weymouth... or any other mainline.

 

[route:oxford]

Ship one aross to Stadler Rail and see what they can come up with...

 

[Olaf]

Why not just leave them where they are on the Vic - Brighton express services and run them more often. I frequently see 377s used in their place.

They are no longer good enough for the Gatwick Express service, something that should be on a par with the Heathrow Express service in view of Gatwick's owners intent to compete with Heathrow.

Their replacement is already planned for, so now they have no future unless a new role is identified.

Given that suggestions for their modifications are just fantasy, perhaps those suggestions should be aimed at seeing them form part of the HS3 project - the latest fantasy railway.

 

[antharro]

They are no longer good enough for the Gatwick Express service, something that should be on a par with the Heathrow Express service in view of Gatwick's owners intent to compete with Heathrow.

They have never been good enough for GatEx as they are entirely unsuitable for that service. Brighton Express services are different, and putting the disability issues aside, they're ok for those services.

 

[Olaf]

They have never been good enough for GatEx as they are entirely unsuitable for that service. Brighton Express services are different, and putting the disability issues aside, they're ok for those services.

As pointed out, there is no future for them on the BML.

 

[BestWestern]

I really don't see 442s replacing 313s in their current duties. They are designed for completely different journeys, and the 313s run the Coastway services well enough. I figured they would be left there to work out their final years to retirement.

I can see the sense in moving the 313s elsewhere, particularly as they're dual voltage, but given the refurbishment they've just been through, I cannot see Southern wanting to let them go. Plus the overhead equipment was removed when they were refurbed for Coastway services.

The suggestion was for the Wessex fleet to free up some Electrostars, which would then work the Coastway. Or use the 442s on a Coastway express service. Clearly the Wessex fleet would be inappropriate as a direct 313 replacement on the curreny endlessly stopping Coastway diagrams.

Good point about the lack of panto gear though.

 

[Emblematic]

Pantographs would have been removed from the 313s as a matter of course when moved to an area with no wires. They would be a liability, would still need routine maintenance, and would deteriorate through non-use, especially in the salty sea air on the Coastway run. There would always be the possibility, through error or failure, of the pan extending whilst out and about and striking the next overhead structure. So they will have been taken off and stacked somewhere safe and dry to save all this hassle. So they could be refitted for AC with little trouble, but these are the oldest units on the network so it's quite likely that Coastway will be their final service.

 

[southern442]

How far-fetched is the idea of door-widening, to get a door of similar width to the Chiltern Mainline services?
This would make them more accessible, and possibly give them a longer lease of life doing Brighton fasts.

 

[Emblematic]

Well, the thing with the doors is that there's no requirement for them to be changed - the existing doorways, although not ideal, will scrape (pun intended) through the 2020 requirements. The main changes needed for 2020 are a TSI-PRM compliant toilet, plus relatively minor changes to door controls, adding external sounders and painting handrails. So although they are annoyingly narrow, as they are permitted they will certainly be left. The fact that Angel have gone through compliance with DfT indicates that they have hopes of finding work for the 442s into the next decade.

 

[Brian Aylott]

Well, the thing with the doors is that there's no requirement for them to be changed - the existing doorways, although not ideal, will scrape (pun intended) through the 2020 requirements. The main changes needed for 2020 are a TSI-PRM compliant toilet, plus relatively minor changes to door controls, adding external sounders and painting handrails. So although they are annoyingly narrow, as they are permitted they will certainly be left. The fact that Angel have gone through compliance with DfT indicates that they have hopes of finding work for the 442s into the next decade.

What does 'Angel have gone through compliance with DfT' mean exactly?
If it means they've asked what needs to be done if they find someone who might want to lease them, it seems a prudent thing to do - with this class and every other class
All we know is that they are not fully RVAR compatible now and that it would not be cheap to make them compatible
Obviously Angel and all leasing companies would be much happier to find homes for all their vehicles and wouldn't want to sell them for scrap but they must fear that scrapyards will be busy in the not too distant future
Brian

 

[swt_passenger]

What does 'Angel have gone through compliance with DfT' mean exactly?

It seems to mean that DfT and Angel have come up with an assessment, and DfT have confirmed exactly what they want doing, and what will be given a dispensation. There is a page on DfT's website here with all the details of the assessment, the covering letter tells Angel what has to be done:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/heavy-rail-fleet-angel-trains-class-442