• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 442 the future.

Status
Not open for further replies.

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,265
Location
Surrey
If money was no object, the best things for them would be new motors to replace the ancient REP motors, this would give them lots more life, then refurbish them so the first class is bigger and now in the front of the train (about 30-35 first seats), you could also potentially rip out the buffet and put in more seating, and instead have a serving area for when the train is busy like on the 444, but that would be me being adventurous. The priority would be replacing the end doors with Chiltern-style mk3 doors, which would increase the flexibility of the trains, even if it isn't much. They could be utilized on Brighton expresses and crowded mainline east/mainline west trains.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
If money was no object, the best things for them would be new motors to replace the ancient REP motors, this would give them lots more life, then refurbish them so the first class is bigger and now in the front of the train (about 30-35 first seats), you could also potentially rip out the buffet and put in more seating, and instead have a serving area for when the train is busy like on the 444, but that would be me being adventurous. The priority would be replacing the end doors with Chiltern-style mk3 doors, which would increase the flexibility of the trains, even if it isn't much. They could be utilized on Brighton expresses and crowded mainline east/mainline west trains.

If money was no object they'd go for new builds of 444s and 450s (with the sloped cabs to meet the crash regs), possibly with 444s taking over all services on the Waterloo-Weymouth and Waterloo-Portsmouth routes. 450s taking over all services on routes that use 456s, 458s and 455s. With a new build of 185s taking over the Waterloo-Exeter route.

Maybe in a couple of years time a 185 could do a Swanage-Brockenhurst route perhaps?
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
4,081
Why would SWT want them back?. When they've got the 444s and the traction motors on the 442s are on borrowed time. Also someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread I think that the bodies have only got a decade left in them. Add the fact that to install pantographs would mean a virtual re-build from scratch of the motor coaches.

im saying the DfT would force them to have them back, like the DfT forced Southern to have them.
 

Train wasp

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2010
Messages
140
If money was no object. Far better to rip up all the 3rd rail on the LSWR main line and Pompey direct and Install overhead wires. Put pantographs on 444s and 450s. For an extra fast service from London to Weymouth use class 395s stopping at Basingstoke,Southampton ,Bournemouth and Weymouth only.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
If money was no object. Far better to rip up all the 3rd rail on the LSWR main line and Pompey direct and Install overhead wires. Put pantographs on 444s and 450s. For an extra fast service from London to Weymouth use class 395s stopping at Basingstoke,Southampton ,Bournemouth and Weymouth only.

And extend every single last platform to be able to handle 12 car trains (there's bound to be some platforms that will be physically impossible to extend - geography, stuff in the way, etc)
 

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,275
I wouldn't use the phrase perfectly good to describe them. In fact, as they're probably one of the networks most flammable trains (in terms of frequency of catching fire) I'd hate to be trying to get off one in an emergency with just two narrow doors per carriage and that damned internal door chomping away at each passing passenger.

Of course my loathing and hatred for them is biased, having spent a couple of hours stuck in a tunnel on one - and when the emergency lighting starts to run out of juice, they're a very cold, dark and uninviting heap of metal to be stuck in.

To be fair much of that is down to Southern's shoddy maintenance. They were far more reliable when maintained by SWT.
 

GatwickDepress

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2013
Messages
2,588
Location
Leeds
It isn't down to shoddy maintenance on Southern's or the ROSCO's part at all. The motors are on borrowed time as it is, not to mention how the wiring is apparently incredibly individual to each unit.
 

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,275
It isn't down to shoddy maintenance on Southern's or the ROSCO's part at all. The motors are on borrowed time as it is, not to mention how the wiring is apparently incredibly individual to each unit.

Had the motors had a rewind before going to SN, and had SN maintained them to the same standard that Bomo depot did, there would be no issue.

Bearing in mind the MBLS from one unit ran in half the fleet on a rolling basis whilst modifications were made to the others when in NSE trim the wiring differences shouldn't be that much.
 

LBSCR Times

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2013
Messages
617
Location
Sussex born and bred
Bearing in mind the MBLS from one unit ran in half the fleet on a rolling basis whilst modifications were made to the others when in NSE trim the wiring differences shouldn't be that much.

Considering that Bomo told Lovers Walk that the wiring was not the same in any two units, and to avoid running them as 5 cars....

They weren't perfect in their last days on SWT either.
That's why there was a 73 on standby at Woking.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
To be fair much of that is down to Southern's shoddy maintenance. They were far more reliable when maintained by SWT.

The units were in a poor state when Southern took them on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It isn't down to shoddy maintenance on Southern's or the ROSCO's part at all. The motors are on borrowed time as it is, not to mention how the wiring is apparently incredibly individual to each unit.

Agreed.

These units have no medium/long-term future, and any further expenditure on them would be very hard to justify.
 

MrC

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2009
Messages
218
Had the motors had a rewind before going to SN, and had SN maintained them to the same standard that Bomo depot did, there would be no issue.

Given the units' history of motor bearing failure rate (going back to SWT times) it's possible that the motors are suffering core/stator ovality. If that's the case then no amount of rewinding will fix them and it's basically new motor time.
 

antharro

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2006
Messages
708
Around the time that they were withdrawn from SWT, I remember hearing that SWT were running down the maintenance on them for two reasons. One, so they could justify the claims that the trains were unreliable, and two, so they didn't have to spend money on maintaining trains they were getting rid of. I don't know if there was any truth in this but it does make me wonder whether, if true, any lack of maintenance followed by sitting around at Eastleigh has contributed to them being less reliable now. I suspect that due to their unique wiring, they might be more "high maintenance" than other trains, and the maintenance they received would have had to have been absolutely top-notch; any slip in the standard of maintenance would have allowed the trains to exhibit faults far faster than with more modern trains. I certainly don't remember them setting fire to themselves or failing as regularly in their SWT days as they seem to have done for Southern.
 
Last edited:

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
Around the time that they were withdrawn from SWT, I remember hearing that SWT were running down the maintenance on them for two reasons. One, so they could justify the claims that the trains were unreliable, and two, so they didn't have to spend money on maintaining trains they were getting rid of. I don't know if there was any truth in this but it does make me wonder whether, if true, any lack of maintenance followed by sitting around at Eastleigh has contributed to them being less reliable now. I suspect that due to their unique wiring, they might be more "high maintenance" than other trains, and the maintenance they received would have had to have been absolutely top-notch; any slip in the standard of maintenance would have allowed the trains to exhibit faults far faster than with more modern trains. I certainly don't remember them setting fire to themselves or failing as regularly in their SWT days as they seem to have done for Southern.

Rumour, tittle-tattle, gossip, and another's axe-grinding are not worth anyone's attention.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
Rumour, tittle-tattle, gossip, and another's axe-grinding are not worth anyone's attention.

... and even if it were true the fact that more time has elapsed is likely to mean that they are less reliable than they would have been anyway.
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
6,853
Location
Beeston (Notts)
Failing all of this, I guess if the 379 is successful, the piggies could become IPEMUs and work the West of England Main Line. Just need 3rd rail at Salisbury, Gillingham, Yeovil and Exeter to charge the terminators up before their return journey.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
I'm curious about there being wiring issues, and many differences between units. Can anyone qualify this with some further detail or an explanation; seems odd that BR would have built 24 sets and made a hash of the wiring on them all?

I'm also perlexed by the suggestion that the bodies 'only have 10 years' in them - why? They're MK3s, so it would be odd if they had a significantly shorter lifespan than their counterparts, the HST trailers in particular are well over a decade older and have spent their lives doing higher mileages at higher speeds, and yet they're good until 2030ish apparently. Were the 442s built to a lower standard, or is this just rubbish?
 
Last edited:
Joined
24 Jun 2014
Messages
442
Location
Derby
As I see it, the main problem with 442s is timing.

Each 442 comprises five cars; four are "normal" integral Mk llls, and the fifth - the power car - is a heavy underframe vehicle which looks like a Mk lll (and as has been pointed out) is based upon the generator cars built by BREL for Ireland. The four non-powered cars are mounted on Series 3 trailer bogies, the power cars on the motorised version as found on the "short Mk lll" and 'Networker' EMUs built at York during the 1980s and first half of the 1990s; later versions of these bogies are still being fitted to 'Electrostars' currently in build at Derby.

British Rail had to work within financial parameters set by government; consequently, an "innovative" approach often had to be taken to get projects through the appraisal/approval process. When the route through to Bournemouth was electrified in the 1960s, much of the rolling stock procured wasn't new; some completely new VEPS were built for stopping services, but the TCs were formed from older Mk ls, some of which dated back to the early 1950s (if I remember correctly); the REPs were a mixture of new driving power cars and older trailers.

Move on twenty years. The REPs/TCs were knackered and the 33s used for Bournemouth - Weymouth were also getting old in the tooth, so something drastic was needed; the end result was the Bournemouth - Weymouth electrification scheme, and the procurement of the class 442s to go with it.
And once more, to get the project through the the appraisal/approval process, some innovation was required; the direct consequence of this was the fitting of traction equipment recovered from the REPs.

This was a sensible way forward; the traction equipment performed well so contiued use was low risk, EE traction equipment was noted for its long life, passengers got new trains - and BR got the project through the appraisal/approval process.

Remember also that three-phase traction systems were then in their infancy; as this was before the instruction was issued by the BRB that all future builds of rolling stock were to be specified so that they were suitable for use on either AC or DC, if BR had purchased new it would probably have been chopper controlled (maybe a DC only version of that fitted to class 319s), so that would also have added risk. But by reusing the REP equipment, if maintenance costs became to high before bodies and bogies became life expired, the option of jumping to three-phase could be considered.

The Mk lll bodyshell seems to have been so well designed (or over engineered!) that it will go on well beyond the normal life expectancy of a coach of about 30/35 years; I think it's fair to assume that this must be the case or various ROSCOs/TOCs (and Chiltern in particular) wouldn't have invested the sums of money in them that they have. Therefore, unless the 442s are unusual among Mk llls in having a lot of corrosion, they too can go on for, say, another twenty years or so.

In later years, BR had a policy of doing 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 life refurbishments of coaching stock; Mk llls fitted well with this as they all came apart inside, and so when one went in works for one of these refurbishments they would emerge looking very different. Older contributors/readers will remember the original blue and orange flat cloth upholstery being replaced by more subtle shades of moquette! In recent years, changes have been more substantial and many now have new seats; by adopting a "pick-and-mix" approach from Mk llls currently in use, it's possible to create a very attractive interior in one's mind.

So if we consider what's been done elsewhere with Mk llls (some of which are over 10 years older than the 442s), it's possible to see how the interiors could be upgraded; a very attractive vehicle environment would be possible. Moreover, a DC re-tractioning should be possible at reasonable cost; costs published for the class 455 re-tractioning average out at less than £450k per set.

But the problem is - as so many contributors have pointed out - were could they be used on DC lines? The consensus seems to be nowhere.

So if we consider conversion to AC, firstly would this be possible, and secondly would it be economic?

As mentioned earlier, the power car isn't a conventional Mk lll; consequently, I believe it is reasonable to assume that the successful creation of a pantograph well without seriously weakening the vehicle's structure must be possible. But would it be able to take the weight of a transformer as well as a new traction package? Don't know!

A weakness of the existing power car design is the poor seat/window arrangement; therefore, could a lesson be learned from the original procurement exercise by mixing new with old and building a new power car body/underframe with better window spacings, a pantograph well, and of sufficient strength to take the new traction package? This would then be mounted on the existing power car bogies, and have seats/etc removed from the displaced vehicles.

Of course, this would increase the cost considerably but wouldn't be of significant risk (if an established refurbishment facility like Doncaster or Wolverton couldn't build the bodies, Qualter Hall of Barnsley constructed them for the class 325s, and class 156 bodies were built by a number of suppliers - some, possibly all - of which no longer exist, so there is a precedent for outsourcing steel bodies for rolling stock here in the UK); but at the end of the day the heavily refurbished/modified class 442 could be an attractive proposition for a ROSCO/TOC because it would be considerebly cheaper than a brand new train. But to the passenger, they would think it to be new.

Re-tractioning of the 455s works out at about £450k, and a transformer would also be required for AC use; if a new bodyshell is procured, it could perhaps cost about £2m per set to make a 442 suitable for further use north of the Thames. But if something like a 444 were to be purchased, the cost would be about £7m/£8m per set.

So using simple maths, if we assume the £8m cost for a 444 clone and a forty year life, that equates to £200k per year; £2m for a refurbished 442 for a twenty year life works out at £100k per year. Obviously, this is an over simplification and the ball-park figures used might be wrong, but it gets the messege accross; major investment in a 442 for further use on AC electrified lines MIGHT be worth considering.

But the problem is, where could they be used if they were so modified?

It's my understanding that the plan is to replace the 442s on the Gatwick Express services from 2016; let's assume, therefore, that they would be available for use on AC lines from 2017 onwards. And this is were the problem arises as it effectively means looking at lines which are either already electrified, or else scheduled for electrification during the current Network Rail Control Period; even though it's a big area, it's still difficult to see where they could be used.

Govia are committed to using air conditioned stock on King's Cross - Cambridge -Ely - King's Lynn services in place of 365s; could they be used there?

If they could be made suitable as part of their refurbish for operation at 110mph, could they be used on services out of Paddington?

I guess Midland Main Line is a non-starter; 125mph trains will be required for the long distance services, and it has been reported that class 387s (in twelve car formations at peak periods) will be used on those to Corby. And I can't think of any uses on the Great Eastern or WCML.

So could they be used in Northern England? With their end doors and 23m length they are similar - and I emphasise similar - to class 153s/155s/156s/ 158s already used in the area, so passengers are familar with this particular vehicle layout (they've also had 180s); so could a combination of refurbished 319s and 442s be better for Northern England than just having 319s, as presently proposed? Simple answer is, "I don't know".

We don't know what will happen regarding electrification during the next control period, but there have been suggestions that now it's started, more will follow; Selby - Hull has been mentioned regularly, and there have also been suggestions that Sheffield will be connected to Doncaster and Moorthorpe, and then the NE/SW line be electrified between Derby and Bristol Parkway. If this happens, class 442s would be good for the Nottingham - Cardiff service if it was diverted to run via Parkway (assuming that the Gloucester - Severn Tunnel Junction line wasn;'t electrified as part of such a scheme); but if that happens, it's going to be sometime after 2020.

Putting them into store for five years or so? I don't think so.

So unless some work can be found for all or some of them in Northern England, I fear a one way trip to the scrap yard is the most likely option.

Shame!
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
4,081
As I see it, the main problem with 442s is timing.

Each 442 comprises five cars; four are "normal" integral Mk llls, and the fifth - the power car - is a heavy underframe vehicle which looks like a Mk lll (and as has been pointed out) is based upon the generator cars built by BREL for Ireland. The four non-powered cars are mounted on Series 3 trailer bogies, the power cars on the motorised version as found on the "short Mk lll" and 'Networker' EMUs built at York during the 1980s and first half of the 1990s; later versions of these bogies are still being fitted to 'Electrostars' currently in build at Derby.

British Rail had to work within financial parameters set by government; consequently, an "innovative" approach often had to be taken to get projects through the appraisal/approval process. When the route through to Bournemouth was electrified in the 1960s, much of the rolling stock procured wasn't new; some completely new VEPS were built for stopping services, but the TCs were formed from older Mk ls, some of which dated back to the early 1950s (if I remember correctly); the REPs were a mixture of new driving power cars and older trailers.

Move on twenty years. The REPs/TCs were knackered and the 33s used for Bournemouth - Weymouth were also getting old in the tooth, so something drastic was needed; the end result was the Bournemouth - Weymouth electrification scheme, and the procurement of the class 442s to go with it.
And once more, to get the project through the the appraisal/approval process, some innovation was required; the direct consequence of this was the fitting of traction equipment recovered from the REPs.

This was a sensible way forward; the traction equipment performed well so contiued use was low risk, EE traction equipment was noted for its long life, passengers got new trains - and BR got the project through the appraisal/approval process.

Remember also that three-phase traction systems were then in their infancy; as this was before the instruction was issued by the BRB that all future builds of rolling stock were to be specified so that they were suitable for use on either AC or DC, if BR had purchased new it would probably have been chopper controlled (maybe a DC only version of that fitted to class 319s), so that would also have added risk. But by reusing the REP equipment, if maintenance costs became to high before bodies and bogies became life expired, the option of jumping to three-phase could be considered.

The Mk lll bodyshell seems to have been so well designed (or over engineered!) that it will go on well beyond the normal life expectancy of a coach of about 30/35 years; I think it's fair to assume that this must be the case or various ROSCOs/TOCs (and Chiltern in particular) wouldn't have invested the sums of money in them that they have. Therefore, unless the 442s are unusual among Mk llls in having a lot of corrosion, they too can go on for, say, another twenty years or so.

In later years, BR had a policy of doing 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 life refurbishments of coaching stock; Mk llls fitted well with this as they all came apart inside, and so when one went in works for one of these refurbishments they would emerge looking very different. Older contributors/readers will remember the original blue and orange flat cloth upholstery being replaced by more subtle shades of moquette! In recent years, changes have been more substantial and many now have new seats; by adopting a "pick-and-mix" approach from Mk llls currently in use, it's possible to create a very attractive interior in one's mind.

So if we consider what's been done elsewhere with Mk llls (some of which are over 10 years older than the 442s), it's possible to see how the interiors could be upgraded; a very attractive vehicle environment would be possible. Moreover, a DC re-tractioning should be possible at reasonable cost; costs published for the class 455 re-tractioning average out at less than £450k per set.

But the problem is - as so many contributors have pointed out - were could they be used on DC lines? The consensus seems to be nowhere.

So if we consider conversion to AC, firstly would this be possible, and secondly would it be economic?

As mentioned earlier, the power car isn't a conventional Mk lll; consequently, I believe it is reasonable to assume that the successful creation of a pantograph well without seriously weakening the vehicle's structure must be possible. But would it be able to take the weight of a transformer as well as a new traction package? Don't know!

A weakness of the existing power car design is the poor seat/window arrangement; therefore, could a lesson be learned from the original procurement exercise by mixing new with old and building a new power car body/underframe with better window spacings, a pantograph well, and of sufficient strength to take the new traction package? This would then be mounted on the existing power car bogies, and have seats/etc removed from the displaced vehicles.

Of course, this would increase the cost considerably but wouldn't be of significant risk (if an established refurbishment facility like Doncaster or Wolverton couldn't build the bodies, Qualter Hall of Barnsley constructed them for the class 325s, and class 156 bodies were built by a number of suppliers - some, possibly all - of which no longer exist, so there is a precedent for outsourcing steel bodies for rolling stock here in the UK); but at the end of the day the heavily refurbished/modified class 442 could be an attractive proposition for a ROSCO/TOC because it would be considerebly cheaper than a brand new train. But to the passenger, they would think it to be new.

Re-tractioning of the 455s works out at about £450k, and a transformer would also be required for AC use; if a new bodyshell is procured, it could perhaps cost about £2m per set to make a 442 suitable for further use north of the Thames. But if something like a 444 were to be purchased, the cost would be about £7m/£8m per set.

So using simple maths, if we assume the £8m cost for a 444 clone and a forty year life, that equates to £200k per year; £2m for a refurbished 442 for a twenty year life works out at £100k per year. Obviously, this is an over simplification and the ball-park figures used might be wrong, but it gets the messege accross; major investment in a 442 for further use on AC electrified lines MIGHT be worth considering.

But the problem is, where could they be used if they were so modified?

It's my understanding that the plan is to replace the 442s on the Gatwick Express services from 2016; let's assume, therefore, that they would be available for use on AC lines from 2017 onwards. And this is were the problem arises as it effectively means looking at lines which are either already electrified, or else scheduled for electrification during the current Network Rail Control Period; even though it's a big area, it's still difficult to see where they could be used.

Govia are committed to using air conditioned stock on King's Cross - Cambridge -Ely - King's Lynn services in place of 365s; could they be used there?

If they could be made suitable as part of their refurbish for operation at 110mph, could they be used on services out of Paddington?

I guess Midland Main Line is a non-starter; 125mph trains will be required for the long distance services, and it has been reported that class 387s (in twelve car formations at peak periods) will be used on those to Corby. And I can't think of any uses on the Great Eastern or WCML.

So could they be used in Northern England? With their end doors and 23m length they are similar - and I emphasise similar - to class 153s/155s/156s/ 158s already used in the area, so passengers are familar with this particular vehicle layout (they've also had 180s); so could a combination of refurbished 319s and 442s be better for Northern England than just having 319s, as presently proposed? Simple answer is, "I don't know".

We don't know what will happen regarding electrification during the next control period, but there have been suggestions that now it's started, more will follow; Selby - Hull has been mentioned regularly, and there have also been suggestions that Sheffield will be connected to Doncaster and Moorthorpe, and then the NE/SW line be electrified between Derby and Bristol Parkway. If this happens, class 442s would be good for the Nottingham - Cardiff service if it was diverted to run via Parkway (assuming that the Gloucester - Severn Tunnel Junction line wasn;'t electrified as part of such a scheme); but if that happens, it's going to be sometime after 2020.

Putting them into store for five years or so? I don't think so.

So unless some work can be found for all or some of them in Northern England, I fear a one way trip to the scrap yard is the most likely option.

Shame!

Like you say the mk IIIs are an immensely good coach and its a shame they have been replaced on the WC by Pendolinos and Voyagers......

I actually though a good idea would be that some 'new 442s' could be built with these mk IIIs either with new traction equipment or even vep/cig/cep EE motors when the pendolinos replaced the mk IIIs, but alas the Class 444s were introduced.

Im still hoping maybe Southern keep some 442s, whilst withdrawing a batch to be used as spares, for peak time Eastbourne and Brighton express services. Doubt it would happen though.
 

jrleighton

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2011
Messages
10
Surely an obvious place for refurb A/C 442s would be to replace the coaching stock on the Liverpool Street - Norwich route. More capacity is needed on that line, so to move from 8 car to 10 car trains would be a plus. It's a line speed of 100 mph too. The fleet sizes are near enough the same too, with perhaps a few more EMUs needed to make up the difference. Maybe those Heathrow Connect 360s joining their Great Eastern 360 brethren would make up the fleet numbers.
It's not as if the to-be-refurb Mk3s from the Norwich route wouldn't have a future either - the XC network will prob be running Mk3s with DVT and electric loco for some years to come, assuming that the core XC network gets electrified (with conversion to Poole too) as seems to be mooted.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
If they were to be converted to AC there would probably be a long list of things that need doing:

* Replacement of the traction motors (needs doing anyway)
* Instalation of a pantograph (can that realistically be done anyway)
* Complete rewire
* Possibly new couplings for working with other stock (for at least emergencies and ecs moves)
* Restoration of the buffet?

How much of that could be done without triggering the requirement to meet the new crash regs
 

antharro

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2006
Messages
708
I would think that adding a pantograph would be damned near impossible without some major structural work that would probably cost more than it would be worth. I also don't think the buffet would ever be refitted as the emphasis these days is on more seats.

I think the only realistic form of refurbishment would be for Angel Trains to arrange for a new traction package, in the same way the 455s are to be refitted. Attention to the wiring at the same time would hopefully combine to make them a lot more reliable.

That would then raise the question of where to run them. I'd like to see them back on the Weymouth fasts, but with the new wires going up, that would certainly be short lived. Portsmouth would be an option.

I'd like to see the original BR seats fitted as they were really quite comfortable; I'm not impressed with the seats fitted during the refurb. The seats on 444s are much more comfortable, in my opinion. I'd also like to see first returned to the London-end of the train.
 

Emblematic

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2013
Messages
659
I would think that adding a pantograph would be damned near impossible without some major structural work that would probably cost more than it would be worth. I also don't think the buffet would ever be refitted as the emphasis these days is on more seats.

Do bear in mind that the MBC, as has been mentioned, is not a standard Mk3 carriage, and already had significant structural alterations during the GatEx refit including to the roof. This page shows some useful before/after shots, and this page shows the roof which was already significantly altered from standard. The refit resulted in a ventilation cowl being fitted in the middle of the former water tank hatch, so I assume the tank was removed.
It would be interesting to know what the cost of this refit was, with the units facing possible withdrawal again only a few years after this was completed.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
Do bear in mind that the MBC, as has been mentioned, is not a standard Mk3 carriage, and already had significant structural alterations during the GatEx refit including to the roof. This page shows some useful before/after shots, and this page shows the roof which was already significantly altered from standard. The refit resulted in a ventilation cowl being fitted in the middle of the former water tank hatch, so I assume the tank was removed.
It would be interesting to know what the cost of this refit was, with the units facing possible withdrawal again only a few years after this was completed.
How much larger an area then that would a pantograph need, could that be a potential place to locate a pantograph?
 

Emblematic

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2013
Messages
659
How much larger an area then that would a pantograph need, could that be a potential place to locate a pantograph?

Just comparing by eye, you would probably need about twice the size of the tank hatch for the tray, so extending into the area where the additional pantry hatches used to be. It's probably in the right place though, right up at the end of the carriage is where the well is typically placed.
 

rmt4ever

Member
Joined
13 May 2013
Messages
691
Location
RMT
Without wanting to read this whole subject and posts, I have used the GatEx a few times recently, it's a national disgrace !! It is one of the first things tourists and visitors see of London and it doesn't give a good impression at all especially compared with HEX trains.

The vestibules are creaky and noisy the carriages are old and tired looking. I once heard some American visitors talking in amazement about how bad the train is.

It's shameful that newer units were dismissed from this service in order to put these things on! Shocking..

When are they going ? What will we get instead? .. Sooner the better I think
 

talldave

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2013
Messages
2,676
Without wanting to read this whole subject and posts, I have used the GatEx a few times recently, it's a national disgrace !! It is one of the first things tourists and visitors see of London and it doesn't give a good impression at all especially compared with HEX trains.

The vestibules are creaky and noisy the carriages are old and tired looking. I once heard some American visitors talking in amazement about how bad the train is.

It's shameful that newer units were dismissed from this service in order to put these things on! Shocking..

When are they going ? What will we get instead? .. Sooner the better I think

I couldn't agree more. I avoid using them nowadays if I can. Saves me money too. The sooner they're on baked bean duty the better!
 

joeykins82

Member
Joined
24 Jul 2012
Messages
601
Location
London
Gatwick Express premium ticketing is a pet peeve of mine. Heathrow Express I can just about understand because the railway between Airport Junction and Heathrow is owned by BAA, but GatEx is only about 3 minutes faster than the Southern services that only stop at ECR and CLJ. Given that they're operated by the same TOC it feels like it's just ripping off the uninformed. The Stansted Express has no premium ticketing and that seems to cope fine.

If Londoners could use the Gatwick Express but paid for boundary x tickets and could use railcard discounts maybe it'd pick up more of the airport traveller market that it's supposed to cater to.
 

starrymarkb

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2009
Messages
5,985
Location
Exeter
How much larger an area then that would a pantograph need, could that be a potential place to locate a pantograph?

Weight would be an issue with the Transformer (there is a reason most EMUs have the pan & transformer on a trailer)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top