Class 442 the future.

[cjmillsnun]

Being very ambitious here, but what about refurbishing them back to Wessex-style and use them on an hourly limited stop Charing X-Waterloo East-London Bridge-(Orpington)-Sevenoaks-Tonbridge-Paddock Wood-Headcorn-Ashford-Folkestone West-Central-Dover service? Stops at London Bridge, Orpington, Paddock Wood and Headcorn could be omitted in peak hours.

To put them back to Wessex style won't happen. It would cost too much to put the compartments back for first. You won't be able to reinstate those lovely seats that were ripped out - They don't comply with current regulations and as to put them back would be a refurb you'll never get it through. The buffet (and therefore the snug) won't be reinstated.

Add in refurbing or replacing the traction motors (replacement would be the preferred option as it would be three phase AC motors and new running gear that would use less juice).

All of that is just not viable.

And with so many calling points the Charing X - Dover route is just not suitable, you are going to have station dwell time issues. The route just isn't long enough. The only potential routes that are suitable are Waterloo-Weymouth (the most suitable), Waterloo - Portsmouth (semi fast only), Victoria - Brighton (fast only and the least suitable route). They are designed for limited stop long distance express services only.
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Hear hear. They had a fantastic first class. Even standard class was surprisingly comfortable. The GatEx conversion significantly downgraded the interiors, in my opinion. (The exception being the disabled toilet which I thought was nicely done).

I would love to see them back on Weymouth fasts, with 450s on slows and 444s back on Portsmouth fasts. But I suspect that sadly, they will be scrapped.

They were luxurious. Easily the most comfortable third rail EMU, and at the time among the most reliable. Bomo depot took a lot of pride in them.

 

[sarahj]

I would have never trusted thast buffet. When I was being trained on them when they first came to Southern we were having a fiddle in the 'kitchen' and on the wall was intructions to make cup o soup!!!!. Still would have loved to get my mits on the BR branded microwave mind. The first few I did work were the original ones, love the snug and first class comps. There was even the old telephone kiosk, minus the phone. On one i was working an alarm went off in the kitchen, but we had no keys for access.
Will miss them when they go, after all they have a guards van, luxury.

 

[The Ham]

The 442's are nice trains, but I think that the 444's are nicer (ducks).

I know such a statement will not go down well with many, but as a cyclist the 444's are a lot easier to get a bike on and off of. Espicailly when they are running doubled up as on the 442's you might have to get you bike a long way along the platform as the guard was in the front/rear gaurds van. Whilst the 444's have 2 locations for cycle per set.

I have no problem with the seats in the 444's, as I've said elsewhere thinner seats give you more legroom, whilst ticker seats may give the illusion of more padding whilst in fact not necessarily being not that much more comfertable.

I can see that preserving one or two would be good, as they were an improtant train for their time. However I would rather see new trains ordered than the 442's be shoehorned into doing a job which they don't quite suit just so that we can have this debate all over again in 5 to 10 years time and so that those who like them can be happy safe in the fact that they could travel on them if they so wanted to (but it is likely that very few would).

If they weren't so restricted in where they were suited for, weren't a fairly small fleet (which is likely to get smaller over time for spares) and weren't going to cost a lot to improve so that they were more versitile (i.e. it was quick and easy to add a pantograph), then I would be inclined to side with those who were suggesting keep them and use them, however if the cost (per year) is not that much more, the same, or even less for new trains then sorry but maybe it's time for them to go, or their coaches be used for other purposes.

As an intresting aside, it is not uncommon for members of this forum to suggest an AC version of the 444's, so they must have won friends too. I could see that if there were electrification of the route through Salisbury that a new fleet of 444's mkII could be a sensible option, possibly allowing the current 444's to be sent elsewhere, perhaps to the places where the 442's have been suggested for use in this thread. (but that is fairly off topic).

 

[Monty]

The 444s and most if not all 450s will need a pantograph fitted at somepoint in the future when the 25k OHLE to BSK - SOU is completed. This is also another sticking point preventing the 442s returning to the Weymouth Line in the long term. If they did come back to SWT they would have to go on the Portsmouth Direct Line or to Alton to enable the 444s to go back onto on to the SWML. That said I would imagine SWT would insist Angel Trains spent some serious money on them too.

 

[GodAtum]

To put them back to Wessex style won't happen. It would cost too much to put the compartments back for first. You won't be able to reinstate those lovely seats that were ripped out - They don't comply with current regulations and as to put them back would be a refurb you'll never get it through. The buffet (and therefore the snug) won't be reinstated.

Add in refurbing or replacing the traction motors (replacement would be the preferred option as it would be three phase AC motors and new running gear that would use less juice).

All of that is just not viable.

And with so many calling points the Charing X - Dover route is just not suitable, you are going to have station dwell time issues. The route just isn't long enough. The only potential routes that are suitable are Waterloo-Weymouth (the most suitable), Waterloo - Portsmouth (semi fast only), Victoria - Brighton (fast only and the least suitable route). They are designed for limited stop long distance express services only.
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They were luxurious. Easily the most comfortable third rail EMU, and at the time among the most reliable. Bomo depot took a lot of pride in them.

I'm not familiar with the Wessex and GatEx styles, are their any photos?

 

[hassaanhc]

I'm not familiar with the Wessex and GatEx styles, are their any photos?

This link has a few shots of both. Before they left SWT, First Class was a mixture of both compartments and open saloon, the compartments were removed after Gatwick refurb (as far as I'm aware)

 

[cjmillsnun]

This link has a few shots of both. Before they left SWT, First Class was a mixture of both compartments and open saloon, the compartments were removed after Gatwick refurb (as far as I'm aware)

They were, and first class was moved into a small area on the centre coach. There are some very narrow passages between the guards area and the first and standard sides of that car.

In NSE/SWT trim, the seats were of a BR design, tha was very comfortable. They may have been IC80s, but were certainly the same as those used in the concept international coaches (which I believe they were based on - the international set had the same swing plug doors as the Irish Mk3s, one of the reasons that IE took that set on IIRC.)

When I first started using them, they were still in NSE trim (SWT had only been in existence as a private company for about a month).

The 444s are a decent train, certainly the best of the post privatisation trains, however they aren't a patch on the piggies as they were.

 

[Chris125]

And with so many calling points the Charing X - Dover route is just not suitable, you are going to have station dwell time issues. The route just isn't long enough.

There may well be gauging issues with 23m stock too, especially between London Bridge and Charing Cross.

Chris

 

[higthomas]

I'm too young to have ever 442s on SWT and remember the experience, but have spent a lot of time on 444s and 450s.
Why do people think they were better than the 444s, which in my opinion are just good at what they do, although the sets could be a bit comfier?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm too young to have ever 442s on SWT and remember the experience, but have spent a lot of time on 444s and 450s.
Why do people think they were better than the 444s, which in my opinion are just good at what they do, although the sets could be a bit comfier?

Part of it is just looking back with rose-tinted glasses- I've been guilty of that with the 442s too. They are often used as an example of what BR could pull off if it was left to do its job without political interference (see also HST). They were the last stock built with compartments too, so there's a lot of wistfulness about that!

It'll be a shame to see them go, but sadly I can't see a future for them outside of 2-3 sets being preserved (hopefully at least one being mainline-registered!).

 

[higthomas]

Whoops, accidental post repetition.
Also why do people like compartments so much, or is it too just rose-tinted spectacles?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Whoops, accidental post repetition.
Also why do people like compartments so much, or is it too just rose-tinted spectacles?

Privacy. Compartments are generally quieter as they have fewer people in them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Part of it is just looking back with rose-tinted glasses- I've been guilty of that with the 442s too. They are often used as an example of what BR could pull off if it was left to do its job without political interference (see also HST). They were the last stock built with compartments too, so there's a lot of wistfulness about that!

It'll be a shame to see them go, but sadly I can't see a future for them outside of 2-3 sets being preserved (hopefully at least one being mainline-registered!).

IIRC they were the first of the new stock from the NSE era, and yes they are an example of BR getting it right. They were ideal for the Weymouth route, sadly though with the exception of the Pompey Direct, pretty much unsuitable for anywhere else on the network, and a superb example of getting a quality train on the cheap. They are however running on borrowed time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Whoops, accidental post repetition.
Also why do people like compartments so much, or is it too just rose-tinted spectacles?

Privacy. Compartments are generally quieter as they have fewer people in them.

That's definitely part of it, though if they were still on the Weymouths today I imagine they'd be full by Southampton!
For me at least, it's purely about nostalgia. I vaguely remember compartmented stock on Transpennine services and even the S&C. I always sought the compartments out while I was travelling between Surbiton/Hampton Court/Richmond and Waterloo (I was at uni in Kingston 2001-03).

They just hark back to an age gone by... and there's not much I look back wistfully at- Just compartmented stock and "...if only Hoddle had picked Le Tissier/Gascoigne..."!

 

[paul1609]

Privacy. Compartments are generally quieter as they have fewer people in them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


IIRC they were the first of the new stock from the NSE era, and yes they are an example of BR getting it right. They were ideal for the Weymouth route, sadly though with the exception of the Pompey Direct, pretty much unsuitable for anywhere else on the network, and a superb example of getting a quality train on the cheap. They are however running on borrowed time.

Even on the Pompey Direct Line they were unsuitable. Heavy trains with only the centre car powered meant that except in perfect weather conditions they struggled to keep timings set for the Greyhound sets.

 

[387star]

I'm always amazed how tall they are... they seem to tower over any other train in the vicinity

The seating layout was great with spacious flip down tables and lots of seats around tables.

Compartments are all very well but it is all about safety and security these days The snug also used to attract smokers?

I loved the noise they made and rememeber the nameplates well as BBC South Today ran a special report back in 2007 about the pigs... pertinent to the BEEB because one of the pigs was named BBC South Today!

The seats were often criticised by some as leaning too far back but I don't recall this being a problem for me!

Favourite memories include travelling back on one from portsmouth and southsea to havant in the dead of night back in 2004 and being awe struck by how quiet they were!

If I remember rightly the removal of them in 2007 led to a lot of anger as the 444s were never designed to replace these units
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS a chapel on a hill near Rowlands Castle in Finchdean still depicts a class 442 in south west trains livery inside... the class 442 is also painted on the wall at the lower level entrance to portsmouth and southsea as well as on one of the platforms

 

[Drsatan]

I also doubt the 442s would ever return to the Portsmouth Direct Line because their introduction would result in a net reduction of overall seating capacity.

In their current configuration, each 442 has 322 standard class seats and 24 first class seats, meaning a 10 car set would have 644 standard class seats and 48 first class ones. By contrast, a 12 car 450 formation would have 720 standard class seats and 72 first class seats.

Of course, the middle seat on a 450 isn't popular among many passengers, and not all diagrams on the Portsmouth Direct are for 12 car operation. But then I doubt the DfT would be concerned by the small matter of an uncomfortable middle seat...

 

[TEW]

10-car 444s are also used on peak time services on the Portsmouth Direct line, and is the formation the majority of people would prefer on all services. A 10-carr 444 offers 598 seats in Standard, and 70 First Class. So a 10-car 442 would actually increase Standard class capacity over 444s.

 

[The Ham]

10-car 444s are also used on peak time services on the Portsmouth Direct line, and is the formation the majority of people would prefer on all services. A 10-carr 444 offers 598 seats in Standard, and 70 First Class. So a 10-car 442 would actually increase Standard class capacity over 444s.

True, but if a 442 fails then wither there has to be a 442 spare to replace that one unit or two 444's spare to replace the train. Whilst if a 444 fails then (given they will be used on other services) there would be less spare units require. That and the 444's that are used for these services are in use peak hours to strengthen other services.

Whilst the 442's would likely be sat around in the peaks when there was the most demand for rolling stock, which is the wrong way around.

 

[al.currie93]

All I'll say is that I honestly don't kmow what will happen to them (as I can also say about the HSTs), but I do hope that some use is found for them as they are lovely trains that still have life left in them, especially with minor modifications, and also a lot of nostalgic value (as I can again say about the HSTs), and I really don't like it when perfectly good trains are withdrawn!

 

[Helvellyn]

I also doubt the 442s would ever return to the Portsmouth Direct Line because their introduction would result in a net reduction of overall seating capacity.

In their current configuration, each 442 has 322 standard class seats and 24 first class seats, meaning a 10 car set would have 644 standard class seats and 48 first class ones. By contrast, a 12 car 450 formation would have 720 standard class seats and 72 first class seats.

An FGW style refurbishment would allow seating capacity to more closely match a 12-car 450, although you'd also have to do a Chiltern style rebuilt f the doors to make them more reliable and quicker to operate (it's essentially a 444 door behind the scenes on the rebuilt Mk 3). Take out one tpilet from each TSO, and you'd have four toilets (like a 444), greater seating capacity (not quite at 12-car 450 levels, but not far off) and possibly happier commuters on the Portsmouth direct (put them on the 1Pxx fast services, and maybe also some 1Txx services via Eastleigh).

However, new traction equipment would be needed. Given the experiences SWT is having with the 458/5 rebuilds, and even getting refurbished 456's in service, I think they would be reluctant to go down a rebuild/refurbishment route again for acquiring additional stock. Sadly, I think the 442s will be gone by the end of the decade.

 

[47802]

All I'll say is that I honestly don't kmow what will happen to them (as I can also say about the HSTs), but I do hope that some use is found for them as they are lovely trains that still have life left in them, especially with minor modifications, and also a lot of nostalgic value (as I can again say about the HSTs), and I really don't like it when perfectly good trains are withdrawn!

The Railway isn't there for nostalgic purposes, if you want that try a preserved railway. HST's are life expired and as for the 442's the only sensible further use for them in my view would be major overhaul and retraction, and then put them on the Waterloo Exeter route. However as there is currently no approval for electrifying to Exeter and even if there was it would be AC not DC, the only sensible option is the scrap them.

 

[Emblematic]

Let's not forget that it's the ROSCO that owns these units, and if there is any economic life in them at all, they will seek to exploit it. There will be a huge requirement for more electric units over the coming years, so there may well be uses for these trains. I wouldn't rule out retraction and conversion to AC, the cost of new units is so high that conversions can easily prove more cost effective.

 

[southern442]

All I'll say is that I honestly don't kmow what will happen to them (as I can also say about the HSTs), but I do hope that some use is found for them as they are lovely trains that still have life left in them, especially with minor modifications, and also a lot of nostalgic value (as I can again say about the HSTs), and I really don't like it when perfectly good trains are withdrawn!

I would really like to see what they look like in Southern livery!

 

[physics34]

SWT should be forced to have them back on Waterloo to Weymouths in my opinion.

 

[cjmillsnun]

SWT should be forced to have them back on Waterloo to Weymouths in my opinion.

Not in their current layout. Not enough first. Only half a car.

 

[Emblematic]

Easily fixed - just fit the 1st class interiors FGW are busy ripping out of their HSTs!

 

[physics34]

Not in their current layout. Not enough first. Only half a car.

yeah, really shouldnt be too hard to alter the seating config.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

SWT should be forced to have them back on Waterloo to Weymouths in my opinion.

Why would SWT want them back?. When they've got the 444s and the traction motors on the 442s are on borrowed time. Also someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread I think that the bodies have only got a decade left in them. Add the fact that to install pantographs would mean a virtual re-build from scratch of the motor coaches.

 

[Haydn1971]

Why would SWT want them back?. When they've got the 444s and the traction motors on the 442s are on borrowed time. Also someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread I think that the bodies have only got a decade left in them. Add the fact that to install pantographs would mean a virtual re-build from scratch of the motor coaches.

SWT probably wouldn't get a say in the matter, just like other operators don't when the oldest shabbiest stock gets moved onwards to another operator

 

[talldave]

All I'll say is that I honestly don't kmow what will happen to them (as I can also say about the HSTs), but I do hope that some use is found for them as they are lovely trains that still have life left in them, especially with minor modifications, and also a lot of nostalgic value (as I can again say about the HSTs), and I really don't like it when perfectly good trains are withdrawn!

I wouldn't use the phrase perfectly good to describe them. In fact, as they're probably one of the networks most flammable trains (in terms of frequency of catching fire) I'd hate to be trying to get off one in an emergency with just two narrow doors per carriage and that damned internal door chomping away at each passing passenger.

Of course my loathing and hatred for them is biased, having spent a couple of hours stuck in a tunnel on one - and when the emergency lighting starts to run out of juice, they're a very cold, dark and uninviting heap of metal to be stuck in.