Class 442 the future.

[TheGrew]

Personally much like many of the people here I think the 442s are for either the scrapyard or for LHCS with a locomotive. I would be curious as someone has already suggested as to whether you could scrap the DVT on some services by using the driving end of a 442.
On a side note how long until someone says 91+442 ?? :P

 

[3141]

On a side note how long until someone says 91+442 ?? :P

I'll go one better than that and say 92 + 442. As the 92s are (were?) dual voltage that could raise several more theoretical possibilities.

 

[Class 170101]

Yes they did. As I explained somewhere else the 458/5s and 460s are in response to an ITT first issued in 2009, for the CP4 lengthening projects.

The new tender is for new or cascaded units of 5 x 20m vehicles, basically to provide the trains necessary for the 10 car Reading project, and also the remaining main suburban side strengthening. As they'll either go straight on the Reading route, or go on the Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge routes to displace the 458/5s to the Reading route, then the likelihood of the 442s getting involved has to be considered minimal...

Could the 442s return to the Weymouth route vice 444s, 444s to Bournemouth vice 450s with the 450s running between Windsor / Hounslow / Weybridge?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could the 442s return to the Weymouth route vice 444s, 444s to Bournemouth vice 450s with the 450s running between Windsor / Hounslow / Weybridge?

Not unless you can make the 450s into 5 car units surely?

444s already provide most of the Bournemouth service by the way...

 

[nlogax]

I fear the 442s will go under the blow torch sooner rather than later. It's a sad thought. I used to live beside the BML in the late 80s and remember watching and waiting late at night for their delivery drags heading to nearby Bournemouth TMD from Derby. Did the round trip to Waterloo hundreds of times on NSE-liveried 'Plastic Pigs'..it feels far, far too soon for their demise if that's the plan.

 

[Gareth4949]

I agree as a Brighton main line commenter the journey the London on a 442 is so much more pleasant than a standard 377
Although I agree they aren't suitable for Gatwick passengers why not continue to use them down to Brighton
I'm sure many commuters would be very sad to see them go

 

[Class 170101]

Not unless you can make the 450s into 5 car units surely?

444s already provide most of the Bournemouth service by the way...

Could SWT stations handle 3x 4 car 450s in formation?

 

[Tobbes]

Haydn1971 sounds right - keep the 442s to the end of their natural, and convert some of the Desiros into AC units. At least in a rational railway world that would be the plan. Fax to DfT?

 

[jopsuk]

Personally much like many of the people here I think the 442s are for either the scrapyard or for LHCS with a locomotive. I would be curious as someone has already suggested as to whether you could scrap the DVT on some services by using the driving end of a 442.
On a side note how long until someone says 91+442 ?? :P

The problem with all this "use them as LHCS" stuff, as far as I can work out

LHCS sets need a "traditional" brake van (MUs don't, as such). This could be a DBSO (Mark 2) or it could be a DVT (Mark 3 & Mark 4). I would guess the driving trailers of the 442s would need heavily modified to fulfill this roll.

You'd certainly want to remove the heavy motor car from the formation. Even with bogies replaced and all traction kit removed, they'd still be much heavier than normal carriages.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The problem with all this "use them as LHCS" stuff, as far as I can work out

LHCS sets need a "traditional" brake van (MUs don't, as such). This could be a DBSO (Mark 2) or it could be a DVT (Mark 3 & Mark 4). I would guess the driving trailers of the 442s would need heavily modified to fulfill this roll.

You'd certainly want to remove the heavy motor car from the formation. Even with bogies replaced and all traction kit removed, they'd still be much heavier than normal carriages.

And the cab of the 442 would be more than suitable as it has a straight air brake controller and a hand brake. If you power the compressors, it also has the capability to charge the brake system.

 

[notadriver]

It's worth noting that class 317s are older than 442s and there are no plans to get rid of those any time soon.

 

[Monty]

Haydn1971 sounds right - keep the 442s to the end of their natural, and convert some of the Desiros into AC units. At least in a rational railway world that would be the plan. Fax to DfT?

Hardly a rational plan, all your doing is giving back a class of clapped out units to SWT so you can split up the 444s and basically create two small microfleets...

 

[swt_passenger]

Could SWT stations handle 3x 4 car 450s in formation?

12 car 450s are commonplace on SWT mainline routes, as were 12 car sets of Mk1 stock before the 450s ever arrived...

All the 10 car improvements we keep discussing are on the Windsor side, and main suburban routes.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's worth noting that class 317s are older than 442s and there are no plans to get rid of those any time soon.

It's also worth noting that 317s are AC units, and therefore are more desirable than a 3rd rail only mainline express emu

 

[swt_passenger]

It's worth noting that class 317s are older than 442s and there are no plans to get rid of those any time soon.

As people keep repeating, 442s use second hand traction equipment from the 1960s 4REP units. The traction systems are about 50+ years old and that defines the real life of the stock...

 

[notadriver]

Then just remotor them like they are doing with that 317 and soon 455s?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Then just remotor them like they are doing with that 317 and soon 455s?

The question then is where do they go?

 

[gage75]

are they viable as veihcles to bolster exsisting MKIII rakes??

 

[notadriver]

The question then is where do they go?

How about a cross country service starting in the east somewhere like margate, going via Ashford, Tonbridge, redhill, Gatwick and ending up in Southampton or even Bournemouth

 

[JamesRowden]

Then just remotor them like they are doing with that 317 and soon 455s?

The question then is where do they go?

Run them as 4-car sets along the Coastway?

 

[yorksrob]

Run them as 4-car sets along the Coastway?

Well, it worked for the COR's.

 

[pro4600]

What could be saved from the scrapers? Could the standard intermediate trailers be taken out and used with locos? Power doors and Aircon are a nice improvement over some of the MK3 carriages on the network.

 

[Tobbes]

Hardly a rational plan, all your doing is giving back a class of clapped out units to SWT so you can split up the 444s and basically create two small microfleets...

You do, but the overall effect for the railway as a whole is that it would allow us to get full value for money out of the investment in the 442s rather than early scrapping. Sure LM or TPE would be delighted with a small 444(AC) fleet.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just a quick question, if they are not required by a TOC why are we looking to prevent them from being cut up for scrap? It's worth mentioning here that the SNCF are starting to withdraw some of their earlier built TGV's.......

 

[yorksrob]

Just a quick question, if they are not required by a TOC why are we looking to prevent them from being cut up for scrap? It's worth mentioning here that the SNCF are starting to withdraw some of their earlier built TGV's.......

Well, to me it's annoying. The 442's worked perfectly well on the South Western main line for years and there was no good reason to remove them.

Yet we as taxpayers (and I believe the South Western division required subsidy at the time) paid for them to be removed when there were a lot of other routes that required new trains.

 

[Fincra5]

I'm gonna buy them and convert them into Student Accommodation...if they can turn shipping containers into them, well then.....

 

[starrymarkb]

You do, but the overall effect for the railway as a whole is that it would allow us to get full value for money out of the investment in the 442s rather than early scrapping. Sure LM or TPE would be delighted with a small 444(AC) fleet.

How much more value should be gained for 30 year old units with 50 year old electrical kit? Replacing the electrical kit would cost a lot for little gain and then what happens when the bodies become life expired in 10 years? Do you move the electrical gear to a new train rather then scrap it?

I should add the Japanese seem to scrap stock after a 20 year life.

 

[swt_passenger]

How about a semi fast service from Portsmouth and Bognor to London via Dorking ? This would be more comfortable, if slightly slower, but deliberately priced lower to relieve pressure on the Brighton and Portsmouth main lines.

Where would such a train go north of Dorking, via Epsom and Sutton? There is no spare terminus capacity at Victoria or London Bridge, so some other existing service would have to be cancelled to make room.

The same answer was given by NR in the RUS in response to proposals for additional services via the Arun Valley line. The reason the existing service already splits and joins at Horsham - its all to do with terminus capacity at the London end...

 

[yorksrob]

Where would such a train go north of Dorking, via Epsom and Sutton? There is no spare terminus capacity at Victoria or London Bridge, so some other existing service would have to be cancelled to make room.

The same answer was given by NR in the RUS in response to proposals for additional services via the Arun Valley line. The reason the existing service already splits and joins at Horsham - its all to do with terminus capacity at the London end...

I'd be inclined to shift some services over to the quieter Chatham side at Victoria (particularly now that half of London Bridge is missing).

 

[Flying Snail]

How much more value should be gained for 30 year old units with 50 year old electrical kit? Replacing the electrical kit would cost a lot for little gain and then what happens when the bodies become life expired in 10 years? Do you move the electrical gear to a new train rather then scrap it?

Then is the replacement of the traction kit in 455 units a bad idea? They are Mk3 based stock and are older than 442s. HST sets will be around for some years yet even though they are 10 years older than 442s so saying the bodies will be life expired in 10 years is not correct.

The idea that 442s are life expired when we still have pacers and PEP units around is rubbish. Properly used for the type of services they were designed for they could and should provide another 20 years of service.

If they had been available in the last few years I could have seen conversion to hauled/PP stock for the likes of Chiltern being considered, an easier and cheaper option than retrofitting power doors to earlier MK3 coaches. It would still be an option of course and with the 68s there are more suitable diesel locos available, where the demand would come from is another matter.

If they are to operate under their own power then a return to the South West would be the most logical, this is the only DC area where their long distance layout is suitable.

An extension of 3rd rail to Salisbury with the 442s replacing all DMUs Waterloo-Salisbury. Services continuing to Exeter could then be hauled by a diesel in push-pull mode. Realistically 25kv electrification Salisbury-Exeter is not going to happen anytime soon and this would provide a solution to removing the last diesels from Waterloo as well as releasing a large number of much needed quality DMU stock for expansion and allowing the withdrawl of the worst units on the network.