Class 442 the future.

[southern442]

I would suggest converting 48 377's into 379-style airport express units and having the 442's on brighton trains all day and mainline east and mainline west services in the peaks. They may be old but they can hold a lot of people.

 

[Suraggu]

The pantograph on the NMT has nothing to do with the train's traction - it is an instrumented device only there for checking the contact wire position and tension.

It doesn't create any precedents in the context of converting 442s at all...

What I was trying to explain, abit not directly is that a Mark 3 bodyshell can have a pantograph retrofitted to its roof and if its similar to a 321 then all the cable gubbins go down through a pillar in the saloon and onwards to under frame equipment. No matter though as it it will be ridiculously expensive anyway so its highly unlikely.

 

[Fincra5]

Convert them to push-pull for extra mainline services and give those damn 67s something to do

Chiltern Mainline then

 

[Goldfish62]

And to think that the 458 junk, which SWT decided to keep instead of the 442s, is likely to end up outliving these fine trains...

 

[RichmondCommu]

One possibility would indeed be as loco-hauled stock with the traction equipment removed and the cabs converted for push-pull working. It depends on the leasing company though (but it would surely be worth their while to look into it).

What services would you plan to use the class 442's as push pull units? I'm not sure how they could keep up with DMU / EMU operated services.

 

[Yew]

What services would you plan to use the class 442's as push pull units? I'm not sure how they could keep up with DMU / EMU operated services.

Chilterns 67's have faster acceleration than their DMU's. A situation I can conly see improving with the 68's

 

[RichmondCommu]

Chilterns 67's have faster acceleration than their DMU's. A situation I can conly see improving with the 68's

Really? Are you sure? Do you have any evidence to support this?

 

[Aictos]

How about a semi fast service from Portsmouth and Bognor to London via Dorking ? This would be more comfortable, if slightly slower, but deliberately priced lower to relieve pressure on the Brighton and Portsmouth main lines.

Is there already such a service Which is Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour & Bogor Regis splitting at Horsham.....

I rather just use them on Brighton Expresses all day ie Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton freeing up 377s to use elsewhere in the network not sure how many 377s are actually needed to operate these workings though

 

[GatwickDepress]

Keep one around for third rail railtours? Or perhaps an unpowered fixed rake? The original TOPS code for the TC units was 442 after all.

I would love to see Southern dedicate the 442s to Brighton Expresses, but sadly, I doubt they will. It's a pity really, since the current Brighton semi-fast formation gets busy once it leaves Gatwick Airport and could do with regularly being 7/8 cars long.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How close to being completely life expired are the traction motors? When the traction motors are replaced how much of the underframe equipment would need to be replaced to support the new motors?

If the 442s were striped back literally to the bare bodyshell to have wider plug doors fitted, how viable would it be (would it cost very much extra or be much extra work), to convert them to dual voltage at the same time?

 

[yorksrob]

Is there already such a service Which is Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour & Bogor Regis splitting at Horsham.....

I rather just use them on Brighton Expresses all day ie Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton freeing up 377s to use elsewhere in the network not sure how many 377s are actually needed to operate these workings though

I think they tend to go via Gatwick nowadays, thus compounding capacity issues on the BML.

 

[Blindtraveler]

if opperated as loco hauled push pull, they could go to Chilton, causing a cascade of DMUs elsewhere and affecting journey times very little.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
from there, all 4 coach clubmans to Scotrail for Aberdeen and Inverness workings as 4 or 8 coaches, undertake the messesarry work to clear Dumfries/Stranrar to Glasgow for 170s and cascade some 156s to Northern.

Alternatively, clubmans to TPE with there 2 coach 170s going to LM in exchange for there remaining sprinters which then go to Northern.↲

 

[TheWalrus]

Could they go on the Lymington branch? here we go again!

 

[Wavertreelad]

Well for starters fitting a pantagraph on the roof wouldnt be very easy, maybe you could add a pantagraph car using a 387 pantagraph car, but that's a lot expensive re engineering of the whole train.

And where are you going to use them in northern or TPE land? I don't see any services suitable for these trains.

But there is something they are suitable for its called the scrap yard

Accepting that the alternative to scrapping is an "expensive" engineering job even to make the units compliant post 2019 just to keep them on DC, the question surely for the owners must be would a conversion to AC operation be viable and could suitable work be found?

Looking ahead four or five years, if the present electrification policy continues post next years election, there could be plenty of additional routes across the network that could benefit from rebuilt units initially. It seems to me that on one hand we can dismiss the AC conversion of these units on cost, yet owners of the class 73 can have these even older machines effectively rebuilt and make it viable.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Accepting that the alternative to scrapping is an "expensive" engineering job even to make the units compliant post 2019 just to keep them on DC, the question surely for the owners must be would a conversion to AC operation be viable and could suitable work be found?

Looking ahead four or five years, if the present electrification policy continues post next years election, there could be plenty of additional routes across the network that could benefit from rebuilt units initially. It seems to me that on one hand we can dismiss the AC conversion of these units on cost, yet owners of the class 73 can have these even older machines effectively rebuilt and make it viable.

How much would the dual voltage work and post 2019 work cost per unit compared to the per unit cost of a new build 444s (I know the cabs would have to be sloping like class 380s for any new builds of 444s)?

 

[cjmillsnun]

How close to being completely life expired are the traction motors? When the traction motors are replaced how much of the underframe equipment would need to be replaced to support the new motors?

They're already there. The motors are on borrowed time. A rewind would perhaps give another 5 years.

If the 442s were striped back literally to the bare bodyshell to have wider plug doors fitted, how viable would it be (would it cost very much extra or be much extra work), to convert them to dual voltage at the same time?

There's no need to alter the door sizes, they are compliant.

The biggest issue with converting to AC, is finding room for the transformer. It has to go in the motor coach, as that one is stronger being based on the Mk3 transformer coach that used to be used in Ireland. It's already a very heavy coach. Add to that the pan will need to be on the same coach (to save 25kV being transferred from one coach to the next) which means that the roof will need cutting and re-welding with a pan well. All of these modifications would have to pass the current safety standards as the roof forms part of the structure of the Mk3 and the 25kV stuff would have to be to the latest standards. All in all, a lot of expense for maybe 10 years operation...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Realistically it looks very much the 442s might be headed for the scrapyard. The only possibility that I can think of (and it'll probably way too expensive) would be conversion to DMUs. If they were to have new build motor coaches with pans, and all the electrical gear, traction motors, etc.

1) Would it even be technically possible?
2) Would it meet all the relevant rules and regs?
3) Would it cost too much to be viable when again compared with the cost of a new (complete train) build?

 

[TheWalrus]

If the 442s replace a number of 450s on the Portsmouth how hard would it be to convert the 450s to AC to use on overhead routes?

On another note if Basingstoke-Salisbury was electrified they could replace some 159s.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the 442s replace a number of 450s on the Portsmouth

They won't, because it would reduce passenger capacity (seat numbers), in contravention of the DfT's franchise spec.

how hard would it be to convert the 450s to AC to use on overhead routes?

The 450s and 444s are equally straightforward to convert to dual voltage or AC, they are both wired for it.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the 442s replace a number of 450s on the Portsmouth how hard would it be to convert the 450s to AC to use on overhead routes?

On another note if Basingstoke-Salisbury was electrified they could replace some 159s.

All fasts from Poole-Waterloo could be made 10car 444, perhaps some semis could be made 8car 450s (probably needing if fitted SDO at some stations)

 

[cjmillsnun]

Realistically it looks very much the 442s might be headed for the scrapyard. The only possibility that I can think of (and it'll probably way too expensive) would be conversion to DMUs. If they were to have new build motor coaches with pans, and all the electrical gear, traction motors, etc.

1) Would it even be technically possible?

Yes

2) Would it meet all the relevant rules and regs?

It would have to, but see above as it's possible

3) Would it cost too much to be viable when again compared with the cost of a new (complete train) build?

Yes, bearing in mind the age of the units at 2015 when they are withdrawn. They'll be 27 years old. Therefore there may not be enough life in the other coaches to make it financially viable compared to a new train that will be compliant from the start and have 40 years life.

 

[Polarbear]

Could there be an option whereby the 442's are used as hauled stock & have say class 90's on the end as push/pull format? All around the same age?

Looking north of the Thames, there must be a few routes that could use a mid distance Mk3 type format that could run at 110mph? I know the 442's max speed is currently 100mph but take the electrical equipment off & essentially, they're Mk3's so some 110mph capable bogies shouldn't be too hard to resource?

 

[KiddyKid]

Interesting views, my thoughts were that they could end up as a TC type train with the motors removed and used as loco hauled vehicles. Im not sure if a suitable push pull system could be produced with today's technology but if you look at the Chiltern DVT which uses the AAR push/pull system against the Anglia DVT which uses TDM surely a electronic box of tricks could marry the SR system to AAR or TDM, experts what do you think?

 

[Haydn1971]

As I said above, you don't upgrade the 442 fleet, you switch the 444 fleet that already has provision in the roof and as someone said upthread, is already wired for 25k - practically a days job to do it would seem

 

[Haydn1971]

Then you move the 442 fleet to replace some 444's and use the 444's somewhere else

 

[cjmillsnun]

Then you move the 442 fleet to replace some 444's and use the 444's somewhere else

If they came back to SWT land people would be very happy. Although they'd miss the snug and first class compartments.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought SWT had put out an OJEU notice recently for extra capacity (even beyond the 456s and 458s)?

 

[SF-02]

Is there already such a service Which is Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour & Bogor Regis splitting at Horsham.....

I rather just use them on Brighton Expresses all day ie Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton freeing up 377s to use elsewhere in the network not sure how many 377s are actually needed to operate these workings though

And then perhaps move some of those 377's freed up to southeastern routes currently operated by networker 465/9 which could then go to strengthen London metro routes to 12 car during London bridge rebuilding? All stations and power upgrades now complete for it but not enough networkers to run it currently. At best they'll get half a dozen 12 car routes and SE need more stock to do it. Currently that wont happen for 3-4 years when 377/1's move over. Could this speed that up?

Or could 442's be used on SE? Are there any long distance 'classic' coastal routes the 422 could be used on?

 

[Western Lord]

Maybe the driving cars could be rewired and used to replace passenger-less DVTs on Chiltern and GE services, thus increasing capacity without increasing train length (gangway removal optional).

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought SWT had put out an OJEU notice recently for extra capacity (even beyond the 456s and 458s)?

Yes they did. As I explained somewhere else the 458/5s and 460s are in response to an ITT first issued in 2009, for the CP4 lengthening projects.

The new tender is for new or cascaded units of 5 x 20m vehicles, basically to provide the trains necessary for the 10 car Reading project, and also the remaining main suburban side strengthening. As they'll either go straight on the Reading route, or go on the Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge routes to displace the 458/5s to the Reading route, then the likelihood of the 442s getting involved has to be considered minimal...