Class 442 the future.

[KiddyKid]

With the end in sight of the use of 442's with Gatwick Express is their future one of a swift trip to the scrap yard or continued use with other operators. I remember them being diesel hauled via Laverstock when the mainline was closed, nice train for little outlay i would think.

 

[Jonny]

One possibility would indeed be as loco-hauled stock with the traction equipment removed and the cabs converted for push-pull working. It depends on the leasing company though (but it would surely be worth their while to look into it).

 

[BestWestern]

You would certainly hope so. This has been discussed before, and I seem to recall a number of issues being raised relating to where they would find suitable use, in what formation and with what traction providing the power. They are indeed superb trains and it would be a heck of a shame to see them being cut up, or decaying at Eastleigh works, but rather unfortunately their natural habitat is perhaps the one part of the network that isn't desperately short of trains. Let's hope somebody has a creative plan for at least some of them!

One pie in the sky idea (!) could be to propose use of the 442 fleet as part of a 'budget' electrification package for the WoE route to Exeter. Electrify with side-contact third rail rather than overheads, and run the 442's as a dedicated fleet replacing the 159's. The sets would need to be modified with 'dual shoes' allowing change over to conventional juice for the run over the current electrification, and a retractioning package along the lines of the current 455 project to replace the ancient kit they currently use. Got to be worth a look!?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well, they're clearly unsuitable for GatEx and always were. That said, they're fine units (perhaps less-so since the GatEx refurb) but there's not a huge amount of work they are suitable for. They won't be likely to go back to the Weymouths unfortunately, and other than that I could perhaps see them being useful for a non-stop Victoria-Brighton Express running at 1tph, though you'd struggle to find a path for it!

Hopefully some will be preserved (and 'de-furbished' like the CEP project!).

 

[Manchester77]

With the recent dissatisfaction from people of Portsmouth due to the fact their fast trains are now 450s I wonder if some 442s could be taken back on by SWT allowing not only 10 23m long coaches on some peak services but 450s to be released to strengthen some of the Portsmouth stopping services. If all fast diagrams could be converted to 442 operation you could hopefully release enough 450s to provide extra capacity across the SWT network. However I'd guess this is unlikely to ever happen.

 

[starrymarkb]

I don't think the West of England would be suitable for DC. There are very few locations for grid feeds without a long run of Pylons from elsewhere

 

[talldave]

There aren't enough doors and the internal sliding doors keep closing on the queue of people waiting to get off. Why couldn't someone arrange an interlock that kept the internal doors open whilst the external doors were open? Another example of nobody with responsibility for inflicting such inappropriate rolling stock on customers ever having actually travelled on it!! I vote for the scrap heap.

 

[Manchester77]

I don't think the West of England would be suitable for DC. There are very few locations for grid feeds without a long run of Pylons from elsewhere

Are 442s quite power hungry then?

 

[DXMachina]

Are 442s quite power hungry then?

The power is a multiple of voltage and current. DC being lower voltage by a factor of 33 (at optimal voltage) means the conductor mucst be 33 times the size - which is why a thin wire works for 25Kv where a whole rail is needed for DC

DC means higher current, this means more electrical supplies points as current drops dramatically due to resistance over relatively short distances - AC means much less infrastructure to supply power, as the lower current is a result of the higher voltage, meaning less resistive loss and fewer supply points for the same performance.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Are 442s quite power hungry then?

It's not that they're overly power hungry, more the fact that DC is inefficient, because of the low voltage.

Personally (and this makes me very sad, because I'm very fond of the 442s) I suspect that the end is neigh for them.

 

[3141]

With the recent dissatisfaction from people of Portsmouth due to the fact their fast trains are now 450s I wonder if some 442s could be taken back on by SWT allowing not only 10 23m long coaches on some peak services but 450s to be released to strengthen some of the Portsmouth stopping services. If all fast diagrams could be converted to 442 operation you could hopefully release enough 450s to provide extra capacity across the SWT network. However I'd guess this is unlikely to ever happen.

My recollection is that people on the line to Portsmouth have been complaining since 2007, when 450s were introduced on many of the peak services. The reason for introducing them was to provide more seats on the line. I agree that the 3+2 seats on the 450s are less comfortable. A former SWT MD stated at a public meeting that they had passed all kinds of technical tests, though perhaps that didn't include the human posterior. But if trains with 2+2 seating were reintroduced there'd probably be an outcry about the additional numbers who'd have to stand. And there's certainly be less room for them in the end vestibules of the 442s than on the 450s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One pie in the sky idea (!) could be to propose use of the 442 fleet as part of a 'budget' electrification package for the WoE route to Exeter. Electrify with side-contact third rail rather than overheads, and run the 442's as a dedicated fleet replacing the 159's. The sets would need to be modified with 'dual shoes' allowing change over to conventional juice for the run over the current electrification, and a retractioning package along the lines of the current 455 project to replace the ancient kit they currently use. Got to be worth a look!?

I think that's a great idea (I'd thought of something similar!) and it's a pity to learn (post no. 6) that there would be problems providing enough power. Electrifying the West of England line would release DMUs which are much needed elsewhere.

Alternatively, electrify at 25 kv AC. As the Basingstoke - Southampton section is scheduled to be converted there'd be an opportunity to use 444s converted to dual operation on the Exeter route, while in the interim the 442s could return to the Southampton and Weymouth routes, and the 159s would be released for use somewhere else.

But even I find it difficult to believe that one.

 

[Manchester77]

It's not that they're overly power hungry, more the fact that DC is inefficient, because of the low voltage.

Personally (and this makes me very sad, because I'm very fond of the 442s) I suspect that the end is neigh for them.

Oh right thanks for explaining everyone

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Could the 442's be cascaded to South Eastern potentially freeing up some of the dual voltage 375's?

 

[Manchester77]

My recollection is that people on the line to Portsmouth have been complaining since 2007, when 450s were introduced on many of the peak services. The reason for introducing them was to provide more seats on the line. I agree that the 3+2 seats on the 450s are less comfortable. A former SWT MD stated at a public meeting that they had passed all kinds of technical tests, though perhaps that didn't include the human posterior. But if trains with 2+2 seating were reintroduced there'd probably be an outcry about the additional numbers who'd have to stand. And there's certainly be less room for them in the end vestibules of the 442s than on the 450s.

Yes I think the additional seats might be in the franchise commitment hence why some 450s make their way to Weymouth too. You do have a good point there in that it's very hard to please commuters and ensure you're trains can actually fit the network.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Could the 442's be cascaded to South Eastern potentially freeing up some of the dual voltage 375's?

I can't think of anything they'd be suitable for on SE.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Could they be converted for AC operation which would allow them a larger area of operation?

A conversion to AC with a refurbishment to make them compliant post 2019 could extend their working lives another 15 to 20 years if they moved north to Northern/TPE land?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Could they be converted for AC operation which would allow them a larger area of operation?

A conversion to AC with a refurbishment to make them compliant post 2019 could extend their working lives another 15 to 20 years if they moved north to Northern/TPE land?

A conversion to AC is going to be expensive. You're talking a full rewire, finding space in the motor coach for the transformer, a new control system and cutting the roof to put a pan on it.

If it could be done economically, then the GEML would be ideal. But I doubt it would be cost effective.

 

[47802]

Could they be converted for AC operation which would allow them a larger area of operation?

A conversion to AC with a refurbishment to make them compliant post 2019 could extend their working lives another 15 to 20 years if they moved north to Northern/TPE land?

Well for starters fitting a pantagraph on the roof wouldnt be very easy, maybe you could add a pantagraph car using a 387 pantagraph car, but that's a lot expensive re engineering of the whole train.

And where are you going to use them in northern or TPE land? I don't see any services suitable for these trains.

But there is something they are suitable for its called the scrap yard

 

[bronzeonion]

The motor cars are heavy enough as it is without a transformer being installed!

They certainly suit the Brighton express runs when they were used on them a couple of years back, can't they just be used on that freeing up 377s that could be used elsewhere since Gatex is meant to get new trains.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The motor cars are heavy enough as it is without a transformer being installed!

They certainly suit the Brighton express runs when they were used on them a couple of years back, can't they just be used on that freeing up 377s that could be used elsewhere since Gatex is meant to get new trains.

They suited operation in SWTland better. But that's a non starter now.

 

[Suraggu]

My personal opinion is that they could probably end up in a Storage Yard and possibly scrapped.

The reason is being DC only means they are extremely limited in where they can run. With most of the South DC lines 1/3-2/3 door rolling stock is needed due to the large amount of commuters using the trains and with smaller station dwell times. The 442's unfortunately would struggle on other runs in DC land other than limited stop expresses.
And with Thameslink Southern Franchise having Class 377 & 700's for their main bulk of services I severely doubt the 442's would be needed.

Yes the leasing company could invest in Retractioning and changing from DC -AC with an overhead pantograph (It has been done with the NMT HST so can be done) but without a firm 15-20 year lease no leasing company would spend that sort of money without a done deal.
Plus the leasing company wouldn't turn the 442's into unpowered rolling stock by removing all the traction Gubbins and with the DDA regulations by 2020 which the 442's would need some work, In my mind I doubt they will have a new lease of life in the short term.

Plus if they were made AC compatible, they would be no good on the TPE network because of the layout and doors.

 

[JamesRowden]

The motor cars are heavy enough as it is without a transformer being installed!

They certainly suit the Brighton express runs when they were used on them a couple of years back, can't they just be used on that freeing up 377s that could be used elsewhere since Gatex is meant to get new trains.

Reading the DfT Website, it shows that the Brighton Express services are being merged with the Gatwick Express services by extending 2tph of 4tph Gatwick Express service through to Brghton.

 

[cjmillsnun]

My personal opinion is that they could probably end up in a Storage Yard and possibly scrapped.

Agreed (sadly)

The reason is being DC only means they are extremely limited in where they can run.

again, agreed.

With most of the South DC lines 1/3-2/3 door rolling stock is needed due to the large amount of commuters using the trains and with smaller station dwell times. The 442's unfortunately would struggle on other runs in DC land other than limited stop expresses.

yup. The former SR is mainly commuter country.

And with Thameslink Southern Franchise having Class 377 & 700's for their main bulk of services I severely doubt the 442's would be needed.

yep.

Yes the leasing company could invest in Retractioning and changing from DC -AC with an overhead pantograph (It has been done with the NMT HST so can be done) but without a firm 15-20 year lease no leasing company would spend that sort of money without a done deal.

This is the problem.

Plus the leasing company wouldn't turn the 442's into unpowered rolling stock by removing all the traction Gubbins.

Why not? If they can get a quick lease by doing so then theres no reason why they wouldn't, their appeal is limited on the 3rd rail.

With the DDA regulations by 2020 which the 442's would need some work, In my mind I doubt they will have a new lease of life in the short term.

Not that much, but unless a TOC really wants them, then yep I think they'll end up at Booth's.

Plus if they were made AC compatible, they would be no good on the TPE network because of the layout and doors.

I agree, the best place for them if they were converted to AC would be the GEML to replace the 90/MK3s.

 

[Fincra5]

Reading the DfT Website, it shows that the Brighton Express services are being merged with the Gatwick Express services by extending 2tph of 4tph Gatwick Express service through to Brghton.

It does but that leaves 2tph that aren't Gatex.. Yet I can't see the 442s staying, sadly!

 

[Monty]

I doubt they will see much use after GatEx, maybe as conventional coaching stock for railtours but that's about it. The traction equipment is well past it's sell by date, if the ROSCO wanted to you could always do a proper conversion into a more modern theme of the 4TCs but it means spending money and finding suitable work for them.

 

[Tobbes]

I hope one is saved for the National Collection, ideally in its original form. ISTR that the "plastic pigs" were supposed to herald a new thing for NSE in the late 80s, and that's an important part of the sectorisation story.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes the leasing company could invest in Retractioning and changing from DC -AC with an overhead pantograph (It has been done with the NMT HST so can be done)

The pantograph on the NMT has nothing to do with the train's traction - it is an instrumented device only there for checking the contact wire position and tension.

It doesn't create any precedents in the context of converting 442s at all...

 

[Haydn1971]

Could it be easier to convert half the 444 fleet to AC and transfer the 442 fleet to SWT ?

 

[yorksrob]

It is curious how the end carriage doors are cited as a sticking point for these units. The 158's and 159's have similar end doors and it's hard to see how egress could be any worse than everybody piling off of a 14X or 15X ( apart from the 150's with their 'suburban doors of course !).

How about a semi fast service from Portsmouth and Bognor to London via Dorking ? This would be more comfortable, if slightly slower, but deliberately priced lower to relieve pressure on the Brighton and Portsmouth main lines.

 

[ExRes]

Convert them to push-pull for extra mainline services and give those damn 67s something to do