Class 442 - HST sets

[SpacePhoenix]

Can the 442s have their shoes raised? If they can it would be nice to see them on a few rail tours from Waterloo-Weymouth Quay and perhaps a few from Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour before they get permanently retired

 

[RobShipway]

Can the 442s have their shoes raised? If they can it would be nice to see them on a few rail tours from Waterloo-Weymouth Quay and perhaps a few from Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour before they get permanently retired

Well, if they go to TPE as loco hauled stock, they are going to need to have their 3rd rail shoes removed as they will not be required.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Can the 442s have their shoes raised? If they can it would be nice to see them on a few rail tours from Waterloo-Weymouth Quay and perhaps a few from Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour before they get permanently retired

Of course they can have their shoes raised. They carry rope and paddles for just that purpose.

 

[nlogax]

Of course they can have their shoes raised. They carry rope and paddles for just that purpose.

I don't think the shoes would be the issue. 442 cars are 3 metres longer than Mk 1 or Mk 2 stock. Even if the rails were reopened, clearance would surely be the obstacle down to the quay.

 

[northwichcat]

Rumour is some 442s will now be used on Brighton services even after all the 387s are delivered.

 

[grid56126]

And another rumour is 6 sets for 4 diagrams (2 x 10 cars) for 2 x peak workings Eastbourne to London and return.

 

[physics34]

the Eastbourne rumour is not really a rumour, it was mentioned by GTR when the GatEx 387s were ordered that a few would remain.

Nobody has really said that 442s are going to be withdrawn totally anyway, its just that they will stop being used on gatwick services. Its just that youd guess that a few sets will be taken out of service, surplus to requirements and maybe used for spare parts.

Still no official use for the ones being taken out of use.

 

[Bishopstone]

And another rumour is 6 sets for 4 diagrams (2 x 10 cars) for 2 x peak workings Eastbourne to London and return.

Oh no.

The last thing we need is more 442s to Eastbourne and almost guaranteed lateness, when they even get them to work.

The crusher, please.

 

[CosherB]

I thought it had been a while since we had a new 442 thread ..... :roll:

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought it had been a while since we had a new 442 thread ..... :roll:

This isn't a new one.

 

[RobShipway]

Oh no.

The last thing we need is more 442s to Eastbourne and almost guaranteed lateness, when they even get them to work.

The crusher, please.

As I said the second post that I made on page 1 of this thread, I agree with withdrawing the driving car coaches, but the other coaches for a small cost could be converted to work with class 43's to make quite cheap inter city trains.

 

[DT611]

As I said the second post that I made on page 1 of this thread, I agree with withdrawing the driving car coaches, but the other coaches for a small cost could be converted to work with class 43's to make quite cheap inter city trains.

but there is plenty of carriges currently working with class 43s, and there will be enough to work with those which will survive a bit longer.

 

[RobShipway]

but there is plenty of carriges currently working with class 43s, and there will be enough to work with those which will survive a bit longer.

But the current stock is slam door and where built earlier than the MK3's within the class 442's that have sliding doors, which is what the slam door MK3's would need to be converted too.

 

[jopsuk]

The amount of work required to convert the 442 TSO/TSW carriages into HST trailers is probably on a par with, or greater than, fitting HST trailers with a power door system.

Plus, there's only 48 non-driving trailer vehicles in the 442 fleet. That's enough for 5 2+9, 6 2+8 or 2+7, 8 2+6 or 9 2+5 HST formations. If you could convert the driving trailers as well, you get 10, 12, 13, 16 or 19 9, 8, 7, 6 or 5 carriage rakes.

Which isn't very many. Note that it wouldn't, for example, be enough carriages for Scotrail's HST fleet.

 

[RobShipway]

The amount of work required to convert the 442 TSO/TSW carriages into HST trailers is probably on a par with, or greater than, fitting HST trailers with a power door system.

Plus, there's only 48 non-driving trailer vehicles in the 442 fleet. That's enough for 5 2+9, 6 2+8 or 2+7, 8 2+6 or 9 2+5 HST formations. If you could convert the driving trailers as well, you get 10, 12, 13, 16 or 19 9, 8, 7, 6 or 5 carriage rakes.

Which isn't very many. Note that it wouldn't, for example, be enough carriages for Scotrail's HST fleet.

No, but it would be a good starting place to use them while the slam door HST coaches are being converted.

 

[t_star2001uk]

No, but it would be a good starting place to use them while the slam door HST coaches are being converted.

But they would have to be converted to work with HST Power Cars before they could be used. So lets start a shopping list of things to convert 442 trailers to work with HST's:

1. Rewire of the control systems from southern style 27 way jumper to HST control system.
2. Train supply and associated components would need to be uprated from 750vDC to Three Phase supply.
3. Would the T3 Bogies be able to cope with 125mph running. If not change them to BT10 style bogies with possible associated centre casting change frpm T3 to BT10.


Any corrections or additions to the above would be welcome

 

[Bigfoot]

But they would have to be converted to work with HST Power Cars before they could be used. So lets start a shopping list of things to convert 442 trailers to work with HST's:

1. Rewire of the control systems from southern style 27 way jumper to HST control system.
2. Train supply and associated components would need to be uprated from 750vDC to Three Phase supply.
3. Would the T3 Bogies be able to cope with 125mph running. If not change them to BT10 style bogies with possible associated centre casting change frpm T3 to BT10.


Any corrections or additions to the above would be welcome

Correction. Keep 2 units (the best condition). Then the rest can dissappear to become my next can of beans and razor. The only sensible solution apart from running on the brighton line until they grind to a holt or into a ball of flames...

 

[DT611]

But the current stock is slam door and where built earlier than the MK3's within the class 442's that have sliding doors, which is what the slam door MK3's would need to be converted too.

but slam doors aren't an issue. as i said, there will be enough hst trailors to go round for the 43s that will survive a bit longer, i'd imagine that any carriges or 43s that aren't in good condition will be scrapped with sets reformed with the ones that are in good condition. of course thats speculation on my part, i don't know what will happen apart from they will all meet the scrapman at some stage apart from any preserved examples.

 

[CosherB]

As I said the second post that I made on page 1 of this thread, I agree with withdrawing the driving car coaches, but the other coaches for a small cost could be converted to work with class 43's to make quite cheap inter city trains.

another solution to a problem that doesn't exist .....

 

[DarloRich]

While i am enjoying the thread (and would love to see decent quality stock used until life expired) i just cant get beyond the thought that this all looks like looking for solutions to problems that don't exist.

Is it economic to convert these units for further use? Are the new TPE TOC REALLY going to shell out money to bodge up some Heath Robinson creation to fill a gap until new 25kv electric units come on stream? Why not just take the pick of the remaining HST litter and go from there?

hell at this rate TPE electrification might not happen!

Oh hell no, we don't want such nonsense, when we have 175s that do the job nicely.

442s are not suitable at all on the North and West, those narrow doors are no good to get our luggage on for one, then there's the lack of space for crowds to get off them at peak times (so the majority of the day, but in Hereford worst between 0800 and 0840 and 1530 to 1750), then there's the ancient ambiance inside the 442s.

We've got nicely airy trains inside with the 175s, why on Earth would we want trains with inferior air conditioning and such murkiness inside like on the 442s?

Oh and the seats are perfectly fine for long journeys on 175s, which can't be said of 442s. Then there's the narrow doorway to/from the vestibules on 442s.

We pay premium prices on the North and West, certainly so compared to travel on the LM empire, so we should rightly expect decent trains. Which we get, so it's a horrific thought that we might get inferior rubbish from the Southern Region!

Much better to send the 442s to the scrapyards where they belong!

I understand that the crowds at Hereford during the shocking 20 minute peak will be exponentially higher than a peak hour crowd at the small village stations of London Bridge or London Victoria but if you try i am sure you guys could manage to get on and off easily. I understand those London commuters, country bumpkins that they are, just about manage to get through the narrow doors with their luggage

Finally I would be happy to pay the "premium" service price. Perhaps you would like to swap for my £5812.00 MKC - Euston season ticket

 

[JamesRowden]

Has anyone seen proof that 442s can't be cascaded to a Southern service such as the Victoria to Bognor Regis, Portsmouth and Southampton service? Perhaps GTR have got a choice later in the franchise to extend the lease of the 442s or some 319s.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Has anyone seen proof that 442s can't be cascaded to a Southern service such as the Victoria to Bognor Regis, Portsmouth and Southampton service? Perhaps GTR have got a choice later in the franchise to extend the lease of the 442s or some 319s.

442s will not be going on the Coastway. They are entirely unsuited. 319s might work.

 

[CosherB]

Has anyone seen proof that 442s can't be cascaded to a Southern service such as the Victoria to Bognor Regis, Portsmouth and Southampton service? Perhaps GTR have got a choice later in the franchise to extend the lease of the 442s or some 319s.

This assumes that Southern actually want them, which I'm not sure is the case! SWT didn't want them, replaced with 444s, and Southern are looking to get rid of them with 387s for GatEx.

Unless they can be modified for use with 67s/68s or 90s as LHCS for a modest cost (and I've no idea what would be involved to try and achieve this) then I don't see much of a future for the 442s. Even this assumes that a TOC would want them in preference to MU stock, despite the DfT trying to hawk them around. Over to you Angel Trains .....

 

[JamesRowden]

442s will not be going on the Coastway. They are entirely unsuited. 319s might work.

I thought that since it is service of a fair length and the majority of passengers will travel to/from London, the extended dwell times produced by the 442s would be insignificant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This assumes that Southern actually want them, which I'm not sure is the case! SWT didn't want them, replaced with 444s, and Southern are looking to get rid of them with 387s for GatEx.

Unless they can be modified for use with 67s/68s or 90s as LHCS for a modest cost (and I've no idea what would be involved to try and achieve this) then I don't see much of a future for the 442s. Even this assumes that a TOC would want them in preference to MU stock, despite the DfT trying to hawk them around. Over to you Angel Trains .....

Southern should want whatever is the cheapest and can do the job. The subsequent question is, is there enough alternative suitable stock already available. The 377s displaced by the 442s could displace the 313s.

 

[Domh245]

I thought that since it is service of a fair length and the majority of passengers will travel to/from London, the extended dwell times produced by the 442s would be insignificant.

442s would be suitable for fast services from London to Eastbourne from a passenger view, but not suitable from a passenger perspective along the coastway line itself from Brighton towards Hastings.

From a diagramming view, they are good for the coastway line as they are not very quick, but aren't very good for the brighton mainline, because of their sluggish acceleration and the fact that if one breaks down, you will hold up a very large number of other trains, with considerable knock on effects and resultantly, compensation to pay to the other operators.

 

[Techniquest]

Oh hell no, we don't want such nonsense, when we have 175s that do the job nicely.

442s are not suitable at all on the North and West, those narrow doors are no good to get our luggage on for one, then there's the lack of space for crowds to get off them at peak times (so the majority of the day, but in Hereford worst between 0800 and 0840 and 1530 to 1750), then there's the ancient ambiance inside the 442s.

We've got nicely airy trains inside with the 175s, why on Earth would we want trains with inferior air conditioning and such murkiness inside like on the 442s?

Oh and the seats are perfectly fine for long journeys on 175s, which can't be said of 442s. Then there's the narrow doorway to/from the vestibules on 442s.

We pay premium prices on the North and West, certainly so compared to travel on the LM empire, so we should rightly expect decent trains. Which we get, so it's a horrific thought that we might get inferior rubbish from the Southern Region!

Much better to send the 442s to the scrapyards where they belong!

I understand that the crowds at Hereford during the shocking 20 minute peak will be exponentially higher than a peak hour crowd at the small village stations of London Bridge or London Victoria but if you try i am sure you guys could manage to get on and off easily. I understand those London commuters, country bumpkins that they are, just about manage to get through the narrow doors with their luggage

Finally I would be happy to pay the "premium" service price. Perhaps you would like to swap for my £5812.00 MKC - Euston season ticket

Well, it's roughly a 40 minute peak in the mornings, for the worst of it at least, obviously the peak lasts for a while but that window of time becomes silly. College brats take over the entire station, and don't even think of trying to pass by them as it's almost impossible with the lack of space they leave. The Excess Fares queue is crazily long when they come in on the 0659 BHM-HFD, let alone off ATW trains. Oh and it's a fight to get through the barriers for nearly 10 minutes when a train of them empties out...

ATW charge premium fares compared to LM around here at least. Hereford to Shrewsbury is more expensive, for less distance, than Hereford to Birmingham New Street. Hereford to Cardiff's only about a mile further than it is to Birmingham, but still the fares with ATW are more expensive. Especially when it comes to an Off Peak Return! I don't have access to the fares gen at this time, so haven't added them to this post.

MKC-EUS is a very busy route, going to London, so it's bound to be expensive. That being said, I wouldn't want to have to pay for that! I can only assume it's that expensive because either a) it's a First Class season or b) it allows peak travel with Virgin

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Would the T3 Bogies be able to cope with 125mph running.

How much 125 mph running will the Scotrail HSTs need to do? Other than the WCML/ECML south of Glasgow/Edinburgh respectively, is there any track with a 125 line speed in Scotland?

Not that this affects the price of fish anyway as I can't imagine 442s north of the border, regardless of speed issues!

 

[RobShipway]

I thought that since it is service of a fair length and the majority of passengers will travel to/from London, the extended dwell times produced by the 442s would be insignificant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Southern should want whatever is the cheapest and can do the job. The subsequent question is, is there enough alternative suitable stock already available. The 377s displaced by the 442s could displace the 313s.

I cannot see the class 442's doing the Seaford to Brighton services as they are too long and need trains more like the 377's to be honest.

 

[JamesRowden]

I cannot see the class 442's doing the Seaford to Brighton services as they are too long and need trains more like the 377's to be honest.

You seem to have misread the sentence:
"The 377s displaced by the 442s could displace the 313s"

by removing the start:
"The 377s displaced by the"

 

[cjmillsnun]

You seem to have misread the sentence:
"The 377s displaced by the 442s could displace the 313s"

by removing the start:
"The 377s displaced by the"

442s could not displace the 313s. They are entirely unsuitable for the route. They are even less suitable than the 313s despite having toilets.