Class 442 - HST sets

[RobShipway]

I read a comment in the forum section of the March Modern Railways magazine that the class 442's when they come off lease, that angel trains has proposed that the carriages from these units with their power operated doors are paired with HST power cars when they start to get replaced IEP.

However, I believe that FGW actually owns some of the HST power cars, so how would that work?

One of the suggestions in the letter associated with the above comment, which is I think is good idea, is for the class 442 carriages to be used class 67's with the rebuilding an end coach as a non driving coach to work in push pull mode to replace Arriva Trains wales class 175 fleet to be cascaded elsewhere within ATW, so that they then can release class 158/156 units to replace other units such as pacers.

 

[Techniquest]

Oh hell no, we don't want such nonsense, when we have 175s that do the job nicely.

442s are not suitable at all on the North and West, those narrow doors are no good to get our luggage on for one, then there's the lack of space for crowds to get off them at peak times (so the majority of the day, but in Hereford worst between 0800 and 0840 and 1530 to 1750), then there's the ancient ambiance inside the 442s.

We've got nicely airy trains inside with the 175s, why on Earth would we want trains with inferior air conditioning and such murkiness inside like on the 442s?

Oh and the seats are perfectly fine for long journeys on 175s, which can't be said of 442s. Then there's the narrow doorway to/from the vestibules on 442s.

We pay premium prices on the North and West, certainly so compared to travel on the LM empire, so we should rightly expect decent trains. Which we get, so it's a horrific thought that we might get inferior rubbish from the Southern Region!

Much better to send the 442s to the scrapyards where they belong!

 

[RobShipway]

Techniquest, I have to agree with your comments.

When I lived down in Bournemouth in the early 1990's it was good to travel on the class 442's compared to the slam door stock that was around at the time.

Personally, I would scrap the driving cars of the class 442's and place the other 3 coaches, plus two from another class 442 set of the coaches between HST power cars and then use them on routes where the shortened HST sets are being planned to be used such as in Scotland.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

A quick look at 2014's Platform 5 book (don't have 2015 to hand) states that First Group own a sum total of 12 HST power cars, compared to Angel Train's 85 (used by FGW) and 33 with East Coast / Grand Central (roughly). So plenty of Angel HST power cars to go around

 

[FQ]

One of the suggestions in the letter associated with the above comment, which is I think is good idea, is for the class 442 carriages to be used class 67's with the rebuilding an end coach as a non driving coach to work in push pull mode to replace Arriva Trains wales class 175 fleet to be cascaded elsewhere within ATW, so that they then can release class 158/156 units to replace other units such as pacers.

In my opinion, a better idea would be to send them over to the north to work on the long distance Northern Rail trains such as York to Blackpool and Leeds to Nottingham, freeing up 158s/156s to work a few services that 150s used to work on. Then the 150s could be used on routes that pacers used to be used on (such as Scunthorpe/Sheffield-Lincoln) and start to get rid of the 142s and 144s.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Oh hell no, we don't want such nonsense, when we have 175s that do the job nicely.

You do, but as a fairly regular traveller on the N&W, I'd point out you don't have anywhere near enough of them.

I have spent far too many Sunday afternoons wedged up into someone's armpit on an overcrowded 175 between Church Stretton and Hereford (and, as you rightly say, paying over the odds for the privilege). I have loaded my bike actually on top of a pile of suitcases (in the nominal "bike space") between Hereford and Abergavenny because the train was so rammed.

Whether 442s are the answer I couldn't say - I've not travelled on one for years, though found them very comfortable when I did. But the N&W needs more capacity, and a more forward-thinking operator than ATW would be trying to provide it.

 

[CosherB]

Oh no, yet ANOTHER 442 thread!!!! :roll:

 

[TheEdge]

We need 442 bingo. Or maybe an award for most ridiculous use for withdrawn 442s. I heard WCRC wanted to use them as charter stock fitted with steam heating.

 

[DT611]

I don't think there are any spare power cars though?

If not, it would be stupid to put the 442s in between some as chances are, if there aren't any spare, those that do come off their services have the trailers with them already.

The only possibly potential option at a stretch would be, if any work to make them compatible can be done for a reasonable cost, and a couple of power cars found from sets where the trailers aren't in the best condition but the power cars are, they could be made to work, but even that would be stretching it.

I do hope some use for the 442s can be found but being honest, I don't think there will be. Loco hauled stock might be an option maybe if the mods can be done for a reasonable cost but operators don't seem to be interested in such stock apart from the odd special service. I guess its possibly scrap for them

 

[TheEdge]

Enthusiasts need to accept two facts.

1. 442s are going to end up scrapped
2. The vast majority of HSTs will be following them to Booths.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

With (off the top of my head) about 80-90 IEP sets coming in on the Great Western, with 30-35 sets for East Coast (and futher aheda East Midlands electrificaton), me thinks in the near future there will be more than a few spare power cars lying around.

 

[route:oxford]

With (off the top of my head) about 80-90 IEP sets coming in on the Great Western, with 30-35 sets for East Coast (and futher aheda East Midlands electrificaton), me thinks in the near future there will be more than a few spare power cars lying around.

Although, isn't Abelio-Scotrail relying on the Great Western HSTs being released for the provision of Inter-City Rail services in Scotland?

With electrification running around a year behind schedule, they may need an alternative.

Plenty of 67s around and the opportunity to grab some 442s and do a touch of rewiring.

 

[CosherB]

With (off the top of my head) about 80-90 IEP sets coming in on the Great Western, with 30-35 sets for East Coast (and futher aheda East Midlands electrificaton), me thinks in the near future there will be more than a few spare power cars lying around.

ok .... so is the displacement of HST sets by 125 brand new state of the art trains justification for their re-use, at 40 to 50 years old, on a small fleet of EMUs that will be 30-odd years old with utterly clapped out traction equipment that will need a small fortune spending on them for their potential reuse to enable the cascade of contemporary multiple unit stock? i have neither the time nor inclanation to do the wet-finger maths for such a hairbrained scheme, but i do know for certain that it will not happen.

 

[gazthomas]

Scrap them!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Enthusiasts need to accept two facts.

1. 442s are going to end up scrapped
2. The vast majority of HSTs will be following them to Booths.

Sadly, you're correct. I say sadly because I like 442s and I like HSTs, but we have to be realistic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although, isn't Abelio-Scotrail relying on the Great Western HSTs being released for the provision of Inter-City Rail services in Scotland?

With electrification running around a year behind schedule, they may need an alternative.

Plenty of 67s around and the opportunity to grab some 442s and do a touch of rewiring.

The alternative is quite simple. If the GWML isn't ready, then introduce them on the ECML first, thus freeing up VTEC HST sets that can go to SR

 

[swt_passenger]

However, I believe that FGW actually owns some of the HST power cars, so how would that work?

As a proportion of the entire HST fleet, the small minority owned by First Group are of little or no relevance to your proposal as there are more than enough conventionally leased.

Which isn't to say it is ever likely to happen.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

ok .... so is the displacement of HST sets by 125 brand new state of the art trains justification for their re-use, at 40 to 50 years old, on a small fleet of EMUs that will be 30-odd years old with utterly clapped out traction equipment that will need a small fortune spending on them for their potential reuse to enable the cascade of contemporary multiple unit stock? i have neither the time nor inclanation to do the wet-finger maths for such a hairbrained scheme, but i do know for certain that it will not happen.

I can't say it justifies it but shows it can be done. Just because the basic shell is 50 years old doesn't mean the whole lot is 50 years ago. The basic Boeing 737 airframe is a similar age, but you wouldn't think of the latest 737-800/900 as a direct comparison to the first 737-100.

And I never said do it - just you could, technically, do it. In an ideal world, we would have new stock ready and waiting as electrification rolls in. But we won't for the whole country. The question was about spare HST power cars and there will be some spare in the future. What happens to them is up to the ROSCOs, operators and the Department for Transport.

Nobody knows what will happen in 10 years time. Pacers could still be in use with the recent Porterbrook refurbishment trial. No offence intended, but if you have a crystal ball, please share before making comments like "I do no for certain". Did you know 5 years ago that Virgin would eventually win the East Coast franchise? Or that West Coast would mean franchise disaster? Or Class 73's of all things on sleeper duties?

Anything is possible but whether it deserves to happen is a different matter.

 

[CosherB]

Nobody knows what will happen in 10 years time. Pacers could still be in use with the recent Porterbrook refurbishment trial. No offence intended, but if you have a crystal ball, please share before making comments like "I do no for certain". Did you know 5 years ago that Virgin would eventually win the East Coast franchise? Or that West Coast would mean franchise disaster? Or Class 73's of all things on sleeper duties?

Anything is possible but whether it deserves to happen is a different matter.

1) I'd say that Virgin winning the EC franchise was a reasonably foreseeable outcome.
2) Based on what we now know about the DfT, I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that the WC franchise process turned out to be a turkey.
3) Fair point, but as GBRf don't have any other stock to use, a fully refurbished Class 73 with a new power unit does seem a sensible solution.

If 442's, in whatever form, are in revenue earning service after 2020, I'd be amazed.

 

[TheEdge]

I can't say it justifies it but shows it can be done. Just because the basic shell is 50 years old doesn't mean the whole lot is 50 years ago. The basic Boeing 737 airframe is a similar age, but you wouldn't think of the latest 737-800/900 as a direct comparison to the first 737-100.

Not really a fair comparison. The 737-100/200 are a totally different aircraft to the 737-800s. Infact there are three (soon to be 4) unique families of 737. The 737 Original, 737 Classic, 737 Next Gen and coming soon 737 MAX.

HSTs, bar the internal sprucing up and new engines, are not that far from how they were when they came out of the door.

Your 737 comparison is closer to the difference between Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 and Mk4 coaches.

 

[Techniquest]

You do, but as a fairly regular traveller on the N&W, I'd point out you don't have anywhere near enough of them.

Totally agreed, and having 2-car trains running solo on a busy route is just madness. Yes I know there is no alternative to doing so, but you just cannot explain to the norms why it is how it is.

If all the 175s were a minimum of 3 carriages it would have been a much better situation. However, I'm sure you'd also agree it's better now than having, as we once did, former First ScotRail 150/2s with 3+2 seating layout on Cardiff to Manchester runs (this was back in 2005).

I have spent far too many Sunday afternoons wedged up into someone's armpit on an overcrowded 175 between Church Stretton and Hereford (and, as you rightly say, paying over the odds for the privilege). I have loaded my bike actually on top of a pile of suitcases (in the nominal "bike space") between Hereford and Abergavenny because the train was so rammed.

Nothing in the above surprises me whatsoever. We used to have it much worse, believe it or not. I've been on a ridiculously crowded 153 on a Sunday afternoon (1742 comes to mind, 17-something anyway) where being wedged in was the only option. I'm going back to 2004 or 2005 now, so details of the trip from Hereford to Newport are sketchy but I definitely remember the 153 being in ex-First North Western condition.

ATW have come on a long way from the dark days when they were more commonly referred to as Arriva Trains Fails, but still things could be better.

Whether 442s are the answer I couldn't say - I've not travelled on one for years, though found them very comfortable when I did. But the N&W needs more capacity, and a more forward-thinking operator than ATW would be trying to provide it.

I wouldn't rush to try them to be honest. Since the refurbishment they're definitely no better than in SWT days.

The N&W does need capacity, and I must say that's the comment of the week for me as it's beyond true. What we need is a railway fit for purpose for the 21st century, and cease running it on outdated equipment. However that isn't going to happen any time soon sadly. I do wonder what a different management team would do about the situation, certainly I'll be having high interest in the bidding process for the new franchise when it expires in 2018.

As for the 442s, no. Just no. Please, just no. There are far more suitable options becoming available in the next few years!

 

[hurricanemk1c]

And the essential difference is what can be done with refurbishment. New engines (Class 47 - 57), introducing fuel improvements and passenger interior improvements.

Should also say that the public doesn't really care as long as it is safe, comfortable, and nice to travel. All elements of a good refurbishment. If it is good, the public should not see the difference between a £200000 refurbishment and a £2.5 million new DMU vehicle

 

[Techniquest]

Not even a thorough refurbishment could fix the problems of the 442!

 

[CosherB]

And the essential difference is what can be done with refurbishment. New engines (Class 47 - 57), introducing fuel improvements and passenger interior improvements.

Should also say that the public doesn't really care as long as it is safe, comfortable, and nice to travel. All elements of a good refurbishment. If it is good, the public should not see the difference between a £200000 refurbishment and a £2.5 million new DMU vehicle

Not a great example ..... Class 57's were not refurbished with new engines. Or new alternators. IMO, they're just life-extension examples of Class 47's. They still need plenty of TLC, as DRS found out to their cost recently on the Night Riviera.

Refurbishment should be just that, a facelift. It's not a short-cut cheap alternative to replacement with new, particularly when the origin stock is already time expired. That's just throwing good money after bad.

 

[superkev]

I read a comment in the forum section of the March Modern Railways magazine that the class 442's when they come off lease, that angel trains has proposed that the carriages from these units with their power operated doors are paired with HST power cars when they start to get replaced IEP.

However, I believe that FGW actually owns some of the HST power cars, so how would that work?

One of the suggestions in the letter associated with the above comment, which is I think is good idea, is for the class 442 carriages to be used class 67's with the rebuilding an end coach as a non driving coach to work in push pull mode to replace Arriva Trains wales class 175 fleet to be cascaded elsewhere within ATW, so that they then can release class 158/156 units to replace other units such as pacers.

I think using mid life 442 trailers with hsts perhaps a cheap way of having power doors. HSTs have 3 phase train heat so some modifications may be required.
I never understood why the surplus Irish mk3s with power doors werent snapped up.
kev

 

[CosherB]

What makes this scheme cheap, as it's not simply a case of coupling carriages to two locos. There are copious posts on many threads on here that discuss the technical complexities of trying to achieve this, never mind the potential costs involved. Similarly for the Irish Mk3's. If these schemes were so simple and cheap, why haven't the ROSCO's been at the forefront of snapping up the stock with strategic plans for their long term reuse with TOC's? Because (a) it's technically complex and/or (b) the financials simply do not stack-up.

 

[DT611]

I think using mid life 442 trailers with hsts perhaps a cheap way of having power doors. HSTs have 3 phase train heat so some modifications may be required.
I never understood why the surplus Irish mk3s with power doors werent snapped up.
kev

well, heres the thing, they weren't surplus. they just weren't shiny and new. because here in ireland, shiny and new sorts out all our problems apparently, and, its a photo opportunity for the transport minister. so its all fine and dandy. we could do with them now as we have a railway that is inflexible and under capacity but to late

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Enthusiasts need to accept two facts.

1. 442s are going to end up scrapped
2. The vast majority of HSTs will be following them to Booths.

"In the long run we are all dead" - John Maynard Keynes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In my opinion, a better idea would be to send them over to the north to work on the long distance Northern Rail trains such as York to Blackpool and Leeds to Sheffield, freeing up 158s/156s to work a few services that 150s used to work on. Then the 150s could be used on routes that pacers used to be used on (such as Scunthorpe/Sheffield-Lincoln) and start to get rid of the 142s and 144s.

Leeds to Sheffield is most certainly not a long-distance Northern Rail train service.

 

[pro4600]

Does he mean Leeds - Nottingham?

Too long for the platforms at Dronfield for a start.

 

[FQ]

Does he mean Leeds - Nottingham?

Yep, I did.