Class 43 Scrappings?

[Techniquest]

I'm not fussed on paint, it's what is underneath is what is import

Quite right, the engine is far more important!

O L Leigh: I'm always going to stand up for the HST, they're my class after all...

 

[yorkie]

Let's not start the "Class 43s are not locos" argument again :roll: We've heard it all before! "Only have a cab at one end" Err, Class 20s... "Always run in fixed formations" Err, nope... "Can't run on their own" Err, nope... If 43s are not locos, then neither are 91s, and/or neither were the Arriva top n tailed 37s! But you don't hear people claiming that!

 

[90019]

Let's not start the "Class 43s are not locos" argument again :roll: We've heard it all before! "Only have a cab at one end" Err, Class 20s... "Always run in fixed formations" Err, nope... "Can't run on their own" Err, nope... If 43s are not locos, then neither are 91s, and/or neither were the Arriva top n tailed 37s! But you don't hear people claiming that!

Guard's compartment in the rear that's considered to be a coach?
Wha does that make it?

 

[Guinness]

Let's not start the "Class 43s are not locos" argument again :roll: We've heard it all before! "Only have a cab at one end" Err, Class 20s... "Always run in fixed formations" Err, nope... "Can't run on their own" Err, nope... If 43s are not locos, then neither are 91s, and/or neither were the Arriva top n tailed 37s! But you don't hear people claiming that!

I thought Class 43s had a control unit in the rear guards compartment, surely that counts as a "cab"?

 

[Phoenix]

I thought Class 43s had a control unit in the rear guards compartment, surely that counts as a "cab"?

I thought that was only the 41's???

 

[yorkie]

I've never heard of a control unit; there is no rear cab. But whether or not there is a rear cab doesn't make it a loco or not a loco. Guards go in the TGS (or in a normal coach on GrandCentral).

There's no technical argument to claim they're not locos so you get silly claims instead. I've debated this for hours with a certain person who bored me to death on the subject

 

[Guinness]

I thought that was only the 41's???

I'm not sure whether it was carried on the Production 43s though. I had the original thought when looking at this Final Drawing for the Prototype 41s here: http://www.traintesting.com/images/power_car_drg.jpg .

 

[Phoenix]

I've never heard of a control unit; there is no rear cab. But whether or not there is a rear cab doesn't make it a loco or not a loco. Guards go in the TGS (or in a normal coach on GrandCentral).

There's no technical argument to claim they're not locos so you get silly claims instead. I've debated this for hours with a certain person who bored me to death on the subject

No but the prototypes had a rear cab for shunting and running L/E between duties.

BTW if a rear cab or not doesn't make it a loco or not what does it make it.

 

[yorkie]

BTW if a rear cab or not doesn't make it a loco or not what does it make it.

It doesn't make it anything, as it's a meaningless question. If you suggest that only having one cab means it's not a loco, then what is a class 20? The number of cabs clearly doesn't define if it's a loco or not.

 

[Phoenix]

It doesn't make it anything, as it's a meaningless question. If you suggest that only having one cab means it's not a loco, then what is a class 20? The number of cabs clearly doesn't define if it's a loco or not.

Okay then the smile was to indicate a joke and im perfectly aware that a single cab makes a loco like for instance classes 08,09,14,17,20 etc

 

[O L Leigh]

Let's not start the "Class 43s are not locos" argument again :roll: We've heard it all before! "Only have a cab at one end" Err, Class 20s... "Always run in fixed formations" Err, nope... "Can't run on their own" Err, nope... If 43s are not locos, then neither are 91s, and/or neither were the Arriva top n tailed 37s! But you don't hear people claiming that!

HST powercars cannot haul just any train, only HST sets. This makes them a Driving Motor Brake coach of a diesel-electric unit and not a loco. If they really were locos they would be capable of hauling anything.

O L Leigh

 

[Techniquest]

Nevertheless, isn't one of the primary requirements of the definition of a locomotive to power a train?

If they've got the right coupler, the HST power car can haul virtually anything. Although of course to use both power cars you would need the TDM-like cabling (pass on what it's actually called) to 'talk' to the rear power car, which is why only one power car powered the light engine movement with 43110+051 a while ago (the barrier vehicles lacked the necessary cabling to talk to the rear power car).

Then there's the fact a pair of back-to-back power cars have hauled the Up Night Riviera twice. And you know what they say about things like that...

Point is though they do exactly what they are designed to do and they do a sterling job of it every single day.

 

[90019]

Nevertheless, isn't one of the primary requirements of the definition of a locomotive to power a train?

Then that makes all powered cars in MUs locos then.

 

[Techniquest]

I knew someone would say that as I was typing my previous post. Still, I've got no good rebuttal against it.

 

[theblackwatch]

Let's not start the "Class 43s are not locos" argument again :roll: We've heard it all before! "Only have a cab at one end" Err, Class 20s... "Always run in fixed formations" Err, nope... "Can't run on their own" Err, nope... If 43s are not locos, then neither are 91s, and/or neither were the Arriva top n tailed 37s! But you don't hear people claiming that!

If you didn't want that debate, why have you just started it?

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

This thread should be locked before it ends up descending into a series of tit-for-tat arguments.

 

[GNERman]

Well excuse me EE Type 3:

1.First of all the GC Power Cars do look nice
2.He can write what he wants
3.When her wrote that they are all in use he means that none are in store!

I actually do agree that the NXEC livery is not as good as GC's so please stop critising people for things they wrote!!

 

[Royston Vasey]

This thread should be locked before it ends up descending into a series of tit-for-tat arguments.

I disagree, the original topic is potentially interesting, the thread should be brought back on topic rather than dumped because some people want to argue over semantics! Or maybe the other-topic posts could be given their own thread?

Well excuse me EE Type 3:

1.First of all the GC Power Cars do look nice
2.He can write what he wants
3.When her wrote that they are all in use he means that none are in store!

I actually do agree that the NXEC livery is not as good as GC's so please stop critising people for things they wrote!!

Good points all three. On point 1 (scrapping of NXEC livery PCs) people obviously didn't get the use of hyperbole in Freightliner's post, or chose not to...

 

[O L Leigh]

Upload a pic of an HST powercar hauling freight and I'll be impressed. A Mk1 is simply there as a barrier vehicle.

O L Leigh

 

[John_158]

The Oldest Would now be 34 Years Old and the Youngest Class 43 Loco would be 27 Years Old Remakabley.

 

[Techniquest]

How so? The first production HST sets did not come into play until spring 1976, which was 33 years ago.

As for the topic of scrapping of the class, no-one really knows when this will be but it is heavily likely to be the Eastern Region sets to go first since they should be getting the IEP so withdrawals should begin over there before they do on the Western Region. At which point I would hope the 125 Group will jump in and get whatever they can.

Over here on the Western Region we're looking at having to make the HSTs last until 2025, an impressive 49 years of daily frontline service. To my knowledge, no other class has lasted that long on the mainline. Of course, they might come off the Western Region sooner than that, it's impossible to tell at this time.

I agree with the gentleman with a 373 in his avatar, this is a potentially good subject to discuss.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Upload a pic of an HST powercar hauling freight and I'll be impressed. A Mk1 is simply there as a barrier vehicle.

O L Leigh

http://jamie7354.fotopic.net/p37534433.html

Dear me!

 

[Techniquest]

Shame it's such an obvious fake...

 

[Jim]

Disability regulations and rules on flushing toilets onto the track will eventually catch up with the HST but not yet!

Not really, they are fully accesiable etc - IIRC, all refurbs are fully DDA compliant.

 

[yorkie]

Upload a pic of an HST powercar hauling freight and I'll be impressed. A Mk1 is simply there as a barrier vehicle.

O L Leigh

43s have hauled the Sleeper rake on a couple of occasions.

91s have not hauled freight to the best of my knowledge... so they´re not locos?

 

[90019]

91s have not hauled freight to the best of my knowledge... so they´re not locos?

They have

I cant find the pics, but they have hauled freight.

 

[Darandio]

43s have hauled the Sleeper rake on a couple of occasions.

91s have not hauled freight to the best of my knowledge... so they´re not locos?

Plus they have hauled dead HST sets, so this would make them a loco, not that it doesnt remove my belief that the HST is a loco in its own right.

 

[Techniquest]

Why, pray tell, are we still discussing whether or not HST power cars are locomotives? Quite frankly, I'd say whether you reckon they are or not depending upon which era you grew up in. Pre-1984, I'd say one would not call them locomotives. Post-1984, then you'd be more inclined to agree that they fall under the definition of locomotive. The latter is what I fall into, as daresay I say it, most of us on this forum do.

 

[yorkie]

If you didn't want that debate, why have you just started it?

I didn´t. EE Type 3 and O L Leigh had made the claim earlier in the thread that 43s are not locos.

Technically there is no difference between the way 43s work and the ATN 37s which had through wiring to allow the rear loco to be powered. If people can give technical reasons on why 43s are not locos then it can be an interesting debate but I´ve heard it all before and all the reasons that are given can easily be discounted (ie, one cab, don´t haul freight, through wiring, etc). I´d rather daft claims were not made but, if they are going to be made (sigh) then I´ll argue against them with good reasons!

 

[O L Leigh]

91s have not hauled freight to the best of my knowledge... so they´re not locos?

Perhaps they haven't, but they certainly could as it was part of their original design brief. They have conventional drawgear, air hoses and the like. HST powercars couldn't unless they were heavily modified.

O L Leigh