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Class 43 (HST) trains post 2020.

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starrymarkb

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If Bombardier were being innovative they'd produce a UK version of their AGC units, a go anywhere bi-mode regional unit that works on AC/DC where available and Diesel when it isn't.

That would scupper any use HSTs on regional route lunacy!
 
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Parallel

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I can see some HSTs surviving for at least another 10 years - When you think about it, 2035 isn't THAT far away, but I'm not sure they'll survive that long. Due to a lack of new large diesel intercity trains, I can see them being on Paddington - Plymouth/Penzance services for quite some time. FGW/ the future operator also need to look into bi-modal trains for services from Paddington to Weston Super Mare/Taunton/Carmarthen/ limited services to Pembroke Dock in the summer, as it would be a shame if these stations lost their London services, and HSTs running most of their journey under the wires wouldn't be very cost effective.
 

swt_passenger

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FGW/ the future operator also need to look into bi-modal trains for services from Paddington to Weston Super Mare/Taunton/Carmarthen/ limited services to Pembroke Dock in the summer...

All those destinations (except Pembroke Dock) are shown as being served by bi-mode IEP in the DfT's draft timetable published last year.

The future operator won't be looking into it for long...
 

cjmillsnun

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I can see some HSTs surviving for at least another 10 years - When you think about it, 2035 isn't THAT far away, but I'm not sure they'll survive that long. Due to a lack of new large diesel intercity trains, I can see them being on Paddington - Plymouth/Penzance services for quite some time.

I can't see the need for new large diesel intercity trains. The 222s will fit the bill quite nicely.
 

NotATrainspott

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Regional HST sets wouldn't make much sense once there is a suitable replacement for the 158/159s in production. Using a bi-mode capable traction package derived from the IEP (but limited to ~180km/h with flat cabs) they would be able to live out a perfectly productive life everywhere in the UK from longer-distance TransPennine or east-west CrossCountry runs all the way to the RETB lines once the post-privatisation DMUs are no longer. I would put a good likelihood on there being restrictions on diesel engine operation in city centres and stations in the next few decades due to air quality concerns; it would be then be necessary to have the capability for electric operation even if 95% of the route wouldn't be wired.
 

WatcherZero

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Not read the latest version of the rolling stock plan but didnt the previous one predict that there would still be a need for around 300 Voyager analogue long distance diesel coachs due to life expiry of other stock during the next 20-30 years.
 

yorksrob

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I'm guessing the big yellow banana might outlast passenger 125 services (given departmental stock tends to outlast it's passenger equivalents). Might it be worthwhile NR getting some spare power cars, etc (or even an extra unit).
 

The Ham

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Regional HST sets wouldn't make much sense once there is a suitable replacement for the 158/159s in production. Using a bi-mode capable traction package derived from the IEP (but limited to ~180km/h with flat cabs) they would be able to live out a perfectly productive life everywhere in the UK from longer-distance TransPennine or east-west CrossCountry runs all the way to the RETB lines once the post-privatisation DMUs are no longer. I would put a good likelihood on there being restrictions on diesel engine operation in city centres and stations in the next few decades due to air quality concerns; it would be then be necessary to have the capability for electric operation even if 95% of the route wouldn't be wired.

I agree that once a replacement for the 158/159's is being built then HST's are likely to have a very short lifespan in passenger use, however given that may not be being delivered until about 2024 (based on the oldest 158's being 35 years old, and they may be kept in service for a bit more than that) then there could be a few years when there is a need for some form of HST service which otherwise wouldn't have existed.

If the HST's stop being used all together in 2020 (other than maybe a few to the West Country) then there would likely need to be a DMU order in the early 2020's.
 

NotATrainspott

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I'm guessing the big yellow banana might outlast passenger 125 services (given departmental stock tends to outlast it's passenger equivalents). Might it be worthwhile NR getting some spare power cars, etc (or even an extra unit).

It might not be that necessary when a significant proportion of the IEP fleet will be fitted with some of the same monitoring technology. There will need to be a monitoring train for HS2 as well and now that the HS1-HS2 captive link looks dead in the water for 2026 it will have to be a new classic-compatible kept in the UK. With the link it might just have been possible to share the Iris 320 or its replacement with SNCF/HS1 Ltd. So long as a diesel generator or two can be shoehorned into a classic-compatible there shouldn't be a problem using it on classic lines as the Iris is in France.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Could the power cars at least be used for some freight workings, where running round the train is a pita?
 

thenorthern

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I have just found my old Intercity 125 book and it mentions a 20 year lifespan for the train, who would ever have thought at the time that they would be approaching double that by the time they were being considered for withdrawal.
 

yorksrob

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It might not be that necessary when a significant proportion of the IEP fleet will be fitted with some of the same monitoring technology. There will need to be a monitoring train for HS2 as well and now that the HS1-HS2 captive link looks dead in the water for 2026 it will have to be a new classic-compatible kept in the UK. With the link it might just have been possible to share the Iris 320 or its replacement with SNCF/HS1 Ltd. So long as a diesel generator or two can be shoehorned into a classic-compatible there shouldn't be a problem using it on classic lines as the Iris is in France.

Oh dear. High speed de-icer/sandite unit :idea::lol:

Personally I'm dreading the day, but as George Harrison said, all things must pass :cry:
 

NLC1072

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Mad idea ... GA take some for those summer Saturday Great Yarmouth drags and make it a week long service... so I can dream lol:D
 

Brian Aylott

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If the HST's stop being used all together in 2020 (other than maybe a few to the West Country) then there would likely need to be a DMU order in the early 2020's.
Why is this with all the planned electrification (and new EMUs)?
As a result of this the PRS Strategy authors expect diesel vehicles required to reduce in the five years of CP6 by a further 1200 odd
Brian
 

Chris125

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It's not easy to see appropriate uses for all the Voyagers and Meridians released by electrification, so I really can't see a future for the HST much beyond the early 2020's.

I'm not even convinced by their use down to Penzance post-IEP; it can only be a matter of time before politicians promise new rolling stock to appease those unhappy about the lack of rail investment in the South West.

Chris
 

The Ham

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Why is this with all the planned electrification (and new EMUs)?
As a result of this the PRS Strategy authors expect diesel vehicles required to reduce in the five years of CP6 by a further 1200 odd
Brian

Although there is a lot of electrification planned (and therefore associated EMU's) there are still a lot of pacers which need to be withdrawn at a time when passenger numbers are continuing to grow. I am not suggesting that there would be a lot, maybe up to a dozen sets, just enough to free up some units to provide a bit more capacity on a number of key routes.

For instance if the HST's were used by GW on the Portsmouth to Cardiff route then that would require 7 sets (shorterned to say 6 coaches), which at the very least would free up 7 sets of 158's to then be used elsewhere. Which would enable extra capacity on those routes, new services and/or older stock to be retired.

Given that they are used by Arriva Trains Wales, East Midlands Trains, First Great Western, First ScotRail, Northern Rail and South West Trains there would likely to be much demand for them. Even if no one else wanted them (whiich is highly unlikely) SWT's would probably like to extend their trains to 10 coaches long.

Nor am I saying that they would last very long, probably until about 2025 (if that late) when the class 15x fleets is likely to start to be considered for retirement and further electrification has reducsed the number of routes which require DMU's. However by doing so it can remove the need for a small order of DMU's early in the 2020's which then makes the 15x replacement order smaller which means the cost for both orders would be higher and/or could result in a more mixed fleet, making transfering sets around more difficult. It could also allow time for a bi-modal/battery trains to be developed meaning that pure DMU's become a thing of the past.
 

starrymarkb

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It's not easy to see appropriate uses for all the Voyagers and Meridians released by electrification, so I really can't see a future for the HST much beyond the early 2020's.

I'm not even convinced by their use down to Penzance post-IEP; it can only be a matter of time before politicians promise new rolling stock to appease those unhappy about the lack of rail investment in the South West.

Chris

Indeed, when the last big round of investment was announced a few weeks ago the local media did notice and report that there was nothing for SW of Bristol. I don't think it will be politically acceptable to keep HSTs to the far SW long term
 

irish_rail

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For Padd - Plymouth / Penzance,

IEPs - unlikeley due to the expense

222s/221s - incredibly unlikeley as they will be near enough 20 years old, cramped, far less seating than at present (once a 1st class HST coach is converted to standard), lack the necessary luggage room and uncomfortable.

Why would the people of the west except "cast offs" from other routes, especially when they are unsuitable for the job?

So, I can imagine HSTs will be getting a life extension on this route for several years at least, and in my view that is most definitely the lesser of two evils.....
 

starrymarkb

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For Padd - Plymouth / Penzance,

IEPs - unlikeley due to the expense

222s/221s - incredibly unlikeley as they will be near enough 20 years old, cramped, far less seating than at present (once a 1st class HST coach is converted to standard), lack the necessary luggage room and uncomfortable.

Why would the people of the west except "cast offs" from other routes, especially when they are unsuitable for the job?

So, I can imagine HSTs will be getting a life extension on this route for several years at least, and in my view that is most definitely the lesser of two evils.....

The local politicians are making noise about no IEP or Electrification. If anything the Dawlish blockage has made the SW rail network a political issue and all parties are in agreement that investment is needed.

I suspect it will be 22x (temporarily) or a super bi-mode IEP pending further electrification west. The Sea wall isn't an issue for wiring ;)
 

The Ham

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For Padd - Plymouth / Penzance,

IEPs - unlikeley due to the expense

222s/221s - incredibly unlikeley as they will be near enough 20 years old, cramped, far less seating than at present (once a 1st class HST coach is converted to standard), lack the necessary luggage room and uncomfortable.

Why would the people of the west except "cast offs" from other routes, especially when they are unsuitable for the job?

So, I can imagine HSTs will be getting a life extension on this route for several years at least, and in my view that is most definitely the lesser of two evils.....

22x's could work, although it would mean that there would have to be a increase in frequency to accommodate the slight difference in seating (based on 2013 layouts of 222's and HST's). Although it is true that the HST's are seeing a reduction in the number of first class seats it would also be possible to reduce the number of first class seats on the 222's as well.

(2013 figures) FGW long distance HST (2+8) has 375 standard class and 112 or 118 first class (487/493 total seats), whilst the 5 coach 222's have 192 standard and 50 frst class and 10 tip up seats (252 total seats or 51% of the number of seats in an 8 coach IC125) whilst the 7 coach 222's have 236 standard class and 106 first class and 16 tip up seats (358 total seats or 72% of the number of seats in an 8 coach IC125). Either way for much of the year an adiquite amount of seating for most services.

However 2x5 coach 222's would have 504 seats (or slightly more than an IC125, but a few less at 484 if you do not count the tip up seats), whilst 7+4 coach 222's running togeter would have about 515 seats (again slightly more than an IC125, or 492 if you don't count the tip up seats).

All in all hardly far less than the current number of seats. They would also have the advantage that there could be direct trains to London from some of the branch lines in Cornwall (if there was sufficient demand) by splitting services. They would also speed up the services as not only would they be able to out accelerate the HST's but there could be a reduction in dwell time allowances due to not needing to worry about having doors left open.

IEP maybe perceived as expensive by some whilst others disagree (no point going over the arguments again here), however, if the trains to the west country are bi-modal sets which have been freed up by further electrification (i.e. extra EMU intercity trains) elsewhere then they could be useful rather than having to buy a new type of bi-modal or DMU intercity train.

The 222's could be a good stop gap until passenger numbers grow a bit more to justify the use of IEP and/or to allow time for electrification to free up IEP's. As the 5 coach bi-modal sets would bring many of the advantages of the options to split services, although the full length trains would have a higher capacity than the current HST's (about 18% more I believe).
 

starrymarkb

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I should also add that Flybe seem to be jumping in with Flights from Exeter to London City starting 3x daily later this year. Maybe they think they can poach business traffic if there isn't any major improvements to the rail links. Previously the train has been considered untouchable by air travel.
 
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It's not easy to see appropriate uses for all the Voyagers and Meridians released by electrification, so I really can't see a future for the HST much beyond the early 2020's.

I'm not even convinced by their use down to Penzance post-IEP; it can only be a matter of time before politicians promise new rolling stock to appease those unhappy about the lack of rail investment in the South West.

IMHO the most credible post so far on this thread.

For Padd - Plymouth / Penzance,

IEPs - unlikeley due to the expense

222s/221s - incredibly unlikeley as they will be near enough 20 years old, cramped, far less seating than at present (once a 1st class HST coach is converted to standard), lack the necessary luggage room and uncomfortable.

Why would the people of the west except [sic] "cast offs" from other routes, especially when they are unsuitable for the job?

So, I can imagine HSTs will be getting a life extension on this route for several years at least, and in my view that is most definitely the lesser of two evils.....

So if a sub-20-year-old Voyager/Meridian is too old, how is a 40+ year-old HST better on this count? Your point about less seating is valid but that didn't stop Virgin replacing HSTs with Voyagers on CrossCountry workings, did it?! And (rightly or wrongly) the people of the west have no say in which trains they get. Those who do choose the trains will no doubt point out the improved journey times and reliabililty which the 22x trains should bring, and make (possibly false) promises about running them in multiple to provide enough seating.

Many people will be sad to see the end of the HSTs, but the politicians and TOCs are unlikely to be swayed by nostalgia!

I should also add that Flybe seem to be jumping in with Flights from Exeter to London City starting 3x daily later this year. Maybe they think they can poach business traffic if there isn't any major improvements to the rail links. Previously the train has been considered untouchable by air travel.

It will be interesting to see how many people use this. Presumably the main appeal of the flights will be price, because the flight time in a turboprop, plus check-in time, journey to airport, baggage collection etc won't offer much time saving over the train except for those who want to be in the East End of London.
 
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NotATrainspott

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How much diesel would ~10-car 22x trains use running at 200km/h along the GWML? If it is true that they would be significantly thirstier than either the HSTs or the bi-mode IEPs (which would have OHLE for the fastest sections) they might not be particularly suited to the duties, especially if they cannot carry as many passengers as comfortably. Additional Class 800/801s can be ordered without the PFI deal attached if it would be a barrier to having more of them. It isn't as if most of the West of England HST sets are empty right now and with the improvements from the GWML modernisation passenger numbers will only go up and up.
 

starrymarkb

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It will be interesting to see how many people use this. Presumably the main appeal of the flights will be price, because the flight time in a turboprop, plus check-in time, journey to airport, baggage collection etc won't offer much time saving over the train except for those who want to be in the East End of London.

I think they are targeting business traffic which doesn't tend to travel with hold baggage. Certainly with hand baggage only you can be on the DLR within 10 mins of engine shutdown. For the LCY-EXT leg check in closes 15 mins prior to push back (and something similar should be doable at Exeter if there isn't a holiday charter due out at the same time)
 

thenorthern

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Was the Inter-City 125 really the first train outside of Japan to achieve 125 mph on regular service?
 

RobShipway

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Was the Inter-City 125 really the first train outside of Japan to achieve 125 mph on regular service?

Yes, it was I believe until the likes of the TGV's came along in France.

Let's go back a few threads here. Once electrification is complete on the GWML, there will still be a need to be running HST's, so that will mean that they will be running longer than 2020 I suspect but no later than 2025 other than any that are in preservation.

With regards the Class 222's I can see them reploacing the class 221's from ICWC with the 221's going to Cross Country to replace the IC125's.
 

thenorthern

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With regards the Class 222's I can see them reploacing the class 221's from ICWC with the 221's going to Cross Country to replace the IC125's.

Doubt it as the 221s with Virgin Trains are permitted to tilt on the WCML and only the WCML but nowhere else and the 222s can't tilt.
 

swt_passenger

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Doubt it as the 221s with Virgin Trains are permitted to tilt on the WCML and only the WCML but nowhere else and the 222s can't tilt.

So are you basically suggesting that the 'Virgin' 221s will have to stay on the WCML because they can tilt? That wasn't Virgin's intention in their WCML franchise proposals - they were explicitly going to replace the Voyagers...
 
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