Class 43 (HST) trains post 2020.

[thenorthern]

Just a question what is going to happen to the fleet of High Speed Trains (Intercity 125s) after the Intercity Express Programme?

I know First Great Western is going to keep some to operate London to Plymouth according to Wikipedia anyway but what will happen to the rest will they be withdrawn and scrapped or will they just be moved elsewhere?

Cheers to anyone who knows.

 

[Martin_1981]

My guess is that some higher mileage power cars will be scrapped, some will end up on shorter distance services like Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen and Inverness and maybe Manchester-Cardiff, whilst many will probably end up in preservation or on railtour/spot hire duties.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Someone posted a rumour on scot-rail.co.uk that the Abellio bid for ScotRail involved using HSTs for the long-distance InterCity runs. If there is going to be sufficient demand for some of the HST sets to be life-extended through Chilternisation then it would probably make sense to do it for as many as there can be a use found for them.

 

[phil281]

Why don't the DFT make Cross Country take some as a short term solution? There is obviously a capacity issue on their network, double up the voyagers so there are no short trains and use the surplus HST's to cover all the diagrams vacated by doubling up the voyagers. Cross Country already have drivers trained and a maintainance contract in place on this traction, so seems a good solution for a few years whilst new stock is sought to improve capacity on the Cross Country network.

 

[starrymarkb]

Coke Cans

A few might last into the 2020s pending more knitting and IEPs but I very much doubt any will reach the 2035 some claim.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Someone posted a rumour on scot-rail.co.uk that the Abellio bid for ScotRail involved using HSTs for the long-distance InterCity runs. If there is going to be sufficient demand for some of the HST sets to be life-extended through Chilternisation then it would probably make sense to do it for as many as there can be a use found for them.

Is there a need to Chilternise? I thought PRM-TSI could be achieved without converting to power doors. It seems a very expensive solution to what would be 10 years extra at best. But in all fairness, aside from a few sets in preservation (including a production PC with a valenta being paired with 41001 and both being mainline approved) I don't see any being in front line use post 2030.

 

[Class172]

Coke Cans

A few might last into the 2020s pending more knitting and IEPs but I very much doubt any will reach the 2035 some claim.

I hadn't seen any claims of 2035: that really is pushing it in my opinion, to which I think they (if only a few) will last until 2025

 

[route:oxford]

Someone posted a rumour on scot-rail.co.uk that the Abellio bid for ScotRail involved using HSTs for the long-distance InterCity runs. If there is going to be sufficient demand for some of the HST sets to be life-extended through Chilternisation then it would probably make sense to do it for as many as there can be a use found for them.

Pretty hopeless if they can't be diagrammed to go to Glasgow Queen Street though.

The six car sets that head to Aberdeen/Inverness are already full to capacity when they leave Glasgow - so little point in extending platforms into the concourse to accommodate 8 car trains then use heritage 6+2 sets with little more seating.

Maybe a few sets for operation as tourist friendly "pullmans" on the Edinburgh-Stirling-Inverness route would work.

And a refurbished set to operate as the (Independent) Scottish State Train - powered by Scotland's Oil...

 

[thenorthern]

The Intercity 125 must be the best train ever built in this country ever, who would ever of thought that after 38 years every single one not written off would still be in regular revenue service.

 

[43074]

I think the answer to the OP's question is that no-one knows what will happen to the HSTs post 2020, and the same goes for the 222s etc displaced from their current routes by new trains or electrification schemes. If anyone knows otherwise, then do share with us...

Why don't the DFT make Cross Country take some as a short term solution? There is obviously a capacity issue on their network, double up the voyagers so there are no short trains and use the surplus HST's to cover all the diagrams vacated by doubling up the voyagers. Cross Country already have drivers trained and a maintainance contract in place on this traction, so seems a good solution for a few years whilst new stock is sought to improve capacity on the Cross Country network.

By the mid-late 2010s when the first knitting on the XC route has been completed, it is likely that XC can simply shuffle the existing Voyager diagrams to operate more pairs of units; this would be achieved with the introduction of some new electrics. In any case, there has been talk of Virgin Trains replacing their Voyagers with Baby Pendolinos, so surely XC could take these if this were to happen? A useful start by XC could be made if they used 4 (or at least 3) of their HST sets on a daily basis. :roll:

This is all uninformed speculation, not just by me but everyone who has contributed to the ''what will happen to...'' threads in the past, simply because when it comes to rolling stock, the DfT do not plan ahead like that.

 

[ModernRailways]

I doubt XC would want them. It would work out cheaper in the long run to get more Voyagers or an Electric Voyager (possible bi-mode).

The HSTs acceleration is too slow, you can really feel a Voyager going full power they are brilliant at acceleration which helps them pull back time when they're late. The problem with Voyagers is capacity, however, as Virgin want more Pendolinos (and baby ones) that will displace there Voyagers which can then double up on XC services.

I reckon a handful will stay on certain routes with two moving to Chiltern, and a couple to Scotrail to provide a mixture of new services and strengthening of current services.

Other than that, I believe they will be all but wiped out with a couple into preservation.

 

[455driver]

You think Chiltern will take on a fleet of 2 units?
No chance in hell of that happening, it is all about standardisation these days.

 

[Techniquest]

I'd like to know where the proposal to keep HSTs in heavy usage until 2035 came from! Certainly only a couple of years ago it was suggested that 2025 would be ridiculous, 2035 is outlandishly ridiculous. I see no way the HSTs, except for any preservation sets, will make it even close to 2035. Don't forget, that's another 21 years to go yet and the MTU'ing program/HST trailer program was only designed to give the HSTs a much needed 10 year life extension. That was concluded (with special exception to a few ex-EMT power cars now in use with East Coast - although I fail to remember the numbers at this time - and Grand Central's fleet by 2011) in mid-2008 on the Western, which it should be observed is now not far off 6 years ago (I know, that long already! hock. Some of the HST trailer sets and HST power cars were finished in 2007, so that lot will be 7 years into their 10 year life extension. I don't remember any being done in 2006, although it's worth remembering 43004 and 43009 were the prototypes for the MTU program, coming into daily use on the Western in either December 2004 or early 2005 (I honestly can't remember now, it's been way too long since my HST cranking days), so unless they've been touched up again since they'll be worn out sooner.

In previous HST discussions I've read on here (and let's face it, there's been a lot of them in the last 9 years, so my memory's getting hazy), corrosion on the HST trailers has been a major issue in the past. I don't remember what procedures were taken to fix this, but to suggest it won't be a contentious issue over the forthcoming years would be silly.

Just as silly is the proposed idea to use them on Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh services. Why would you do such a thing? 170s are more than capable of delivering most acceptable standards on an inter-urban route such as this one, quite I would imagine regular travellers may see shortened HSTs as a seriously backward step. It's also been mentioned about the work to extend platforms which would be neutralised if you have two non-passenger-carrying vehicles in the train!

So, I hear you ask, where would I use HSTs post-IEP? Well considering I don't see the prototype IEP getting started until at least late 2015 now (so a little over 2 years late), testing wouldn't be completed if done properly for several months, let's call that all done and dusted by the end of 2016. Which, let's not forget, was the same year the IEP was originally to have been in squadron service by. Give it time to get Frothmas and New Year works out of the way, so we're into mid-January 2017. By this time electrifying the North West should be mostly complete so I'm not sending them there. TPX will be looking at a new fleet so sorry, no way will I be putting them on the Pennines. Hmm...

Well I'm not seeing any plans whatsoever to electrify much of Wales any time soon, same for the Western Region. The South East doesn't need HSTs, so with an ever so slight bias to Wales and the West, I'd use HSTs in a shorter formation (2+6 will do nicely, with options to extend them on match days in Cardiff) on services such as Manchester Piccadilly to Holyhead/Llandudno and Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff/West Wales (I'm not specific on West Wales, my own plans for timetabling down that way would be significantly different to reality). I'd also utilise the fleet on services like Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour and London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids/Paignton. I'd even utilise a few on peak services out of Birmingham New Street on the London Midland network. A couple of Birmingham New Street to Hereford services and a couple of Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury services at least would be where I'd put them. Worth adding that I wouldn't be using them on every-lamppost-in-sight peak time workings, good golly gosh no, I'd use them on proper workings!

That's what comes to mind at silly o'clock in the morning at least. I can't be bothered to consider details like First Class provision. Finally, I'd like to point out I'd like to see the HST fleet carry on for as long as possible but there are limits to everything!

 

[thenorthern]

Of course there is the question of what happens to the IC225 stock as well. I think GA may be after that though.

Apart from the Class 141 has any non prototype stock built after 1980 been withdrawn fully or mostly?

With the HSTs though the 180s, Voyagers, 222s and IC225s have failled to make any impact in withdrawing HSTs which shows to me why the HSTs are the best trains ever built in this country and after 38 years they are still some of the best trains on the network. But with all trains they must all be withdrawn one day.

 

[WatcherZero]

Ive not seen anything definite that the bid included using the HST's.

I have seen some unofficial speculation that one way to meet Transport Scotlands requirement for 'viewing coachs' on a budget would be to take them, slice them in half horizontally below the window line and fit new larger windows and possibly a glazed ceiling too.

Personally I think it sounds like a great expense considering how old they are already, a very uneconomical idea.

 

[The Ham]

Well I'm not seeing any plans whatsoever to electrify much of Wales any time soon, same for the Western Region. The South East doesn't need HSTs, so with an ever so slight bias to Wales and the West, I'd use HSTs in a shorter formation (2+6 will do nicely, with options to extend them on match days in Cardiff) on services such as Manchester Piccadilly to Holyhead/Llandudno and Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff/West Wales (I'm not specific on West Wales, my own plans for timetabling down that way would be significantly different to reality). I'd also utilise the fleet on services like Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour and London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids/Paignton. I'd even utilise a few on peak services out of Birmingham New Street on the London Midland network. A couple of Birmingham New Street to Hereford services and a couple of Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury services at least would be where I'd put them. Worth adding that I wouldn't be using them on every-lamppost-in-sight peak time workings, good golly gosh no, I'd use them on proper workings!

SWT's are very unlikely to want the HST's as just the track access charges for the mark 3's are more expensive than the 159's before you add in the lease costs of the class 43's. Then of course there's the problem that a 8+2 HST has less capacity than the 9 coaches which the 159's run as into Waterloo most of the time. This is more of a problem when comparing to the 10 coach 158/159's which are used some of the time. Finaly, as SWT's shortern services at Salisbry, they would have to run full length trains all the way through, costing them more with little scope for filling the seats with cheap tickets between Salisbury and Exeter.

Also, IIRC and if true is relevent to such services as the Portsmouth - Cardiff services, there are only certain types of HST's which can run on the 3rd rail network, meaning that there could be limits to the number of units which could be used.

I would have thought that HST's are likely to be good for routes which could be electrified in CP6 or possibly at a push early CP7. Espicially if it allows the existing stock to be used to strengthen other routes.

Portsmouth - Cardiff could come under this heading, as the route from Portsmouth - Southampton is already electrified and Bath Spa - Cardiff will be by the end of CP5. Given Southampton to Salisbury is/will be cleared for larger freight trains meaning that little or no works is required to the structures to provide clearance for overhead electrification (like Southampton to Basingstoke). That then leaves a fairly short distance from Sailsbury to Bath Spa.

I would however suggest that unless a route is currently served by a 5 coach train or less that a 6+2 HST set could not be that useful as it would be good to provide much more capacity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why don't the DFT make Cross Country take some as a short term solution? There is obviously a capacity issue on their network, double up the voyagers so there are no short trains and use the surplus HST's to cover all the diagrams vacated by doubling up the voyagers. Cross Country already have drivers trained and a maintainance contract in place on this traction, so seems a good solution for a few years whilst new stock is sought to improve capacity on the Cross Country network.

Cross Country currently have the option to use up to 5 HST sets right now, but usually use two AIUI. Part of the problem is time keeping, HSTs can't keep to Voyager times unless they are 2+5, which isn't really much of a benefit to capacity.

I don't think the DfT have any powers to make XC use the HSTs right now either and by the time they could, it is possible that the Virgin 221s and EMT 222s could be available, which would be a better solution.

The Intercity 125 must be the best train ever built in this country ever, who would ever of thought that after 38 years every single one not written off would still be in regular revenue service.

Well, I don't know about them all being in revenue earning service, NR have one and XC usually don't call on all the sets they have access to.

Of course there is the question of what happens to the IC225 stock as well. I think GA may be after that though....

It has been mentioned that EMT (or whoever is running the MML franchise by then) might get them for the newly electrified Midland Mainline, but even this isn't fully known (and has issues with capacity). I'm not sure there are enough sets to cover both EMT and GA routes.

....With the HSTs though the 180s, Voyagers, 222s and IC225s have failled to make any impact in withdrawing HSTs which shows to me why the HSTs are the best trains ever built in this country and after 38 years they are still some of the best trains on the network. But with all trains they must all be withdrawn one day.

Tbf, the 180s and Voyagers were never likely to fully replace the HSTs, the 225s were only ever going to displace the HSTs (the Midland Mainline still had class 45s and Mk2s running around IIRC), The 222s were replacements for class 170s and extra capacity rather than an attempt to withdraw HSTs.

....Also, IIRC and if true is relevent to such services as the Portsmouth - Cardiff services, there are only certain types of HST's which can run on the 3rd rail network, meaning that there could be limits to the number of units which could be used....

The main issue was the 'Swing Link' on the bogies AIUI, the original HSTs had 'Long Swing Links' (LSL) which might get too close to the third rail on some stretches of line. Some HST vehicles had 'Short Swing Links' (SSL) fitted when work on the Southern Region was necessary. I don't think this would be a major hurdle to overcome.

 

[43074]

The 2035 idea was after the refurbishments of the late 2000s, it was suggested that after a major rebuild of the Mark 3s they could actually continue until 2035, considering the major rebuild the power cars had been through. A news story about it can be read here:

An IMechE seminar on February 21 [2011] considered recent work undertaken to establish the long-term mechanical and electrical integrity of the Mk III coaches used in the 200 km/h IC125 diesel high speed trains.

Developments were detailed in presentations by senior engineers from operators First Great Western and East Midlands Trains, as well as fleet owners Angel Trains and Porterbrook Leasing.

Although some HSTs are to be replaced under the Intercity Express Programme, others are expected to continue running on services from London to the West of England. While the power cars have been upgraded, the Mk III trailer coaches have received less compre*hensive refurbishment.

With life-extension likely, it was decided to apply Finite Element Analysis to the Mk III bodyshell, to determine the fatigue life and identify weak points. Forces were measured using an instrumented FGW vehicle and fed into the model, which was run for 60 years.

The work showed that the Mk III body structure is 'a lot better than expected' and can run safely to at least 2035. The modelling had a built-in margin of error, because present-day loads are greater than in the past and the HSTs are operated more intensively.

Only four weld locations were identified as potential problem areas, and these will be monitored during future overhauls. Crack propa*gation analysis was also carried out.

While the power cars have been largely rewired as part of repowering programmes (RG 7.10 p32), much of the cabling in the trailer vehicles remains in its original condition. Accelerated electrical and mechanical life testing by Cobham Technical Services revealed that only the train supply cables and catering equipment wiring needed attention, principally because of their hostile environment. Overall, the Pirelli cable is fit for at least another 25 years of service, assuming the duty cycle remains the same. Some obsolete components, such as junction boxes and circuit breakers, are now being replaced.

Legislation also affects continued service operation, notably the requirement to comply with the Persons of Reduced Mobility TSI from 2020. The seminar was shown the prototype of a new interior door handle, plus a video of a Mk III powered door under test.

I notice the article suggests they will remain on London - Penzance services despite IEP (this was in 2011, but even in 2014 no-one really knows where they will end up), and suggests all that will be necessary is upgrades to the Mark 3 coaches, including power doors; very little is mentioned of the power cars.

 

[Western Lord]

I suspect that, once their raison d'etre has disappeared, the HST's will go the same way as the Deltics; i.e. the knackers yard. Some of the ideas suggested on this thread are laughable. 125mph trains on Manchester-Holyhead or Cardiff-Portsmouth? Get real, these are expensive to operate long distance inter city trains. Unless there is a sudden outbreak of open access operators requiring 125mph stock the scrap yard beckons. As with the Deltics, there is no economic case for cascading to lesser duties, especially if that entailed replacing newer, more economical traction.

 

[thealexweb]

Crosscountry and East Midlands could do with them to boost capacity.

 

[Beveridges]

5 coach HSTs have good acceleration and could be used somewhere to replace high powered muktiple units. About 900hp per coach, thats more than a voyager. Several XC voyagers are only running on 3 engines anyway.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'd agree, the introduction of the Class 800/801 will be the beginning of the end for the Class 43's, but expect a fair number of them continuing on until we start seeing cascades brought about following HS2 services starting.

We could potentially see some of the Class 390 fleet available for cascades by late 2026 as HS2 reaches Birmingham, which sets a timescale for electrification in CP6/7 for further parts of the GWML and XC routes that aren't already wired, more Class 390's by 2027 if Higgins gets his way, with more 390's and loads of 800/801's by 2030 (subject to Higgins) - thinking aloud, Class 390's to replace the IC225's that could have been cascaded to MML ? Hmmm...

Ultimately, the Class 43's will be around until HS2 goes fully operational, because the DfT won't want to invest in short term express intercity units. The more I think about it, the IEP process will probably be the last 125mph express trains, as the next order will be for much faster HS2 stock.

 

[higthomas]

Also, not that long after the HSTs are displaced by IEP, I imagine that the 222's displaced by the electrification of the MML will start to be available, assuming someone actually orders an electric replacement. I imagine that with their better acceleration, lowers maintenance costs and I think but am not sure lowers track access costs? Unless one wants a lot of replacement trains for any route these will probably be a better bet for most routes.

 

[Manchester77]

It's been rumoured that the HSTs that were supposed to be retained for South Western services to Plymouth and Penzance might end up getting replaced by bi-mode IEPs (I can't remember whether they're 800s or 801s!) with more luggage space for the summer traffic.

 

[thenorthern]

I agree that the IC225 trains will probably end up on the Midland Mainline after electrification, some of the 222s I reckon will end up operating Liverpool to Norwich after electrification of the MML.

 

[Techniquest]

I suspect that, once their raison d'etre has disappeared, the HST's will go the same way as the Deltics; i.e. the knackers yard. Some of the ideas suggested on this thread are laughable. 125mph trains on Manchester-Holyhead or Cardiff-Portsmouth? Get real, these are expensive to operate long distance inter city trains. Unless there is a sudden outbreak of open access operators requiring 125mph stock the scrap yard beckons. As with the Deltics, there is no economic case for cascading to lesser duties, especially if that entailed replacing newer, more economical traction.

I don't doubt you're right, a fair few will be going RA to the scrapyards.

As I mentioned with my suggestions in the early hours, it was all off the top of my head. I've not suggested that they'll stay in the same specification as they are now. Potentially, re-gearing to 110mph and on a 2+6 set would be more ideal for some of the Manchester to North Wales services than a 2-car DMU as often happens at peak times out of Manchester. Having the same sort of thing on services to Cardiff makes quite a bit more sense than 2 or 3-car DMUs on match days, quite a lot of match day passengers go down the Marches when there's football or rugby on. Peak services from Cardiff and Bristol do get pretty busy so a regeared 2+6 HST makes far more sense than a 2 or 3-car DMU! Let's not even go into what it's like when the masses of festival goers come back from the Isle of Wight and ram the 158s full to the seams out of Southampton...

Having SSL bogies on those sets going to/from Portsmouth would be mandatory yes, and not difficult to sort out.

Oh, and if you thought my suggestions for capacity-busting trains on busy services in 2014 (let alone what it'll be like in 2017 and beyond) were laughable, you should see some of the stupid proposals for new services in that thread...

 

[Class 170101]

Ultimately, the Class 43's will be around until HS2 goes fully operational, because the DfT won't want to invest in short term express intercity units. The more I think about it, the IEP process will probably be the last 125mph express trains, as the next order will be for much faster HS2 stock.

I would agree with what you say with the only caveat being that the DfT will not order another design of 125mph diesel stock beyond IEP. I would be surprised if 125mph stock isn't ordered in future for ECML, MML and WCML as 125mph services will still be needed for various journey combinations not served by HS2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree that the IC225 trains will probably end up on the Midland Mainline after electrification, some of the 222s I reckon will end up operating Liverpool to Norwich after electrification of the MML.

Not unless Network Rail propose to up rate the maintenance regime to cope with the 222s between Peterborough and Norwich. 222s are restricted to non-sprinter speeds which between Ely and Norwich can be as low as 40mph. Its the main reason why Aintree weekend sees Norwich to Liverpool service split at Nottingham to allow for use of 222s without impacting on the timetable.

 

[Haydn1971]

I would agree with what you say with the only caveat being that the DfT will not order another design of 125mph diesel stock beyond IEP. I would be surprised if 125mph stock isn't ordered in future for ECML, MML and WCML as 125mph services will still be needed for various journey combinations not served by HS2.

Which would be serviced in the medium to long term by cascades of 390/800/801 units that HS2 would displace - 390's and the Class 22x fleets will need replacement in the 2035-2045 timeframe of course, 800/801's beyond that - but it's gonna be IC225's on MML until a cascade becomes available post HS2

 

[The Ham]

I suspect that, once their raison d'etre has disappeared, the HST's will go the same way as the Deltics; i.e. the knackers yard. Some of the ideas suggested on this thread are laughable. 125mph trains on Manchester-Holyhead or Cardiff-Portsmouth? Get real, these are expensive to operate long distance inter city trains. Unless there is a sudden outbreak of open access operators requiring 125mph stock the scrap yard beckons. As with the Deltics, there is no economic case for cascading to lesser duties, especially if that entailed replacing newer, more economical traction.

The main reason that the HST's could likely end up on slower routes is that there could be a shortage of other stock to run them depending on how passenger growth pans out and what is available having been freed up by electrification.

It is cheaper to run a HST for 5 to 10 years (and then be replaced by electrification either directly or indirectly) than buy and run (say) a 2 coach DMU for the same timeframe and then not really have a use for it after that. Even if there was a use for it, because it would likely be a small order the costs would be higher.

Also, although the route between Cardiff and Portsmouth is for the most part subject to slower than 125mph speed limits, it maybe useful to be able to run at the higher speeds when on the higher speed sections so the speed difference is less (i.e. possibility of more paths)

 

[Brian Aylott]

There seems little doubt that many on this forum will be very disappointed when at least 70% of the HSTs (if not all) are replaced by 2020
The present position is;-

TOC PCs Trailers
ECML 32 131
EMT 24 84
GWML 119 447
XC 10 40
GCR 6 18

TOTAL 191 720

Based on the The Rolling Stock Strategy produced by the Rail Industry Steering Group# 2/2014 the following will be the affect on HSTs:-

ECML - All Phase 1 IEPs delivered by 4/2019 - so all HSTs surplus
EMT - With the completion of electrification to Derby/Nottingham 12/2019 and Sheffield 12/2020(at the latest) all HSTs (and Class 222s) to be surplus
GWML - All ordered IEPs delivered by 7/2018 with electrification to Swansea complete by 12/2018 leaving only London - West of England services non IEPs
In CP5 the diesel fleet (including HSTs) is expected to reduce by 935 vehicles
This will include the Class 142s (188 vehicles) but the bulk of the rest will be the HSTs
At present it is expected that initially GWML will retain about 15 sets - about 155 vehicles including spares but this is likely to be greatly reduced with Class 222s becoming available with the MML electrification
XC - The new franchise starts 11/2019 and presumably its fleet will depend upon whose bid is accepted but it is very unlikely that more HSTs will be obtained and the under-used present HSTs are likely to be replaced asap with Voyagers themselves replaced in the new WCML 4/2017 franchise by EMUs or with electrification
GC - Plan is to replace HSTs with the four GWML Class 180s ousted by EMU/IEPs
With the planned electrification to Hull, the Hull Trains Class 180s will then also be available

As previous a poster has mentioned the last refurbishment of the HST fleet was to extend their life by ten years - they are living on borrowed time - and now there is the added problem and cost of stricter regulations eg the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations that are effective 1/1/2020 when all HSTs must include a coach with a compliant Universal Access Toilet
In addition Controlled Emission Tanks will be required on every vehicle - this will mean that every vehicle can then have only one toilet, with those (the majority) at present with two, having the second one removed
It would appear that there is no longer the need to fit power operated doors and now a modified door with a fixed light and an internal handle will be acceptable but these, along with the other changes will make the heavy life extension overhaul required even more expensive
Therefore it is expected, due to the increased leasing/operating costs of aging HSTs and any suitable services to which they could be cascaded that are not shortly to be electrified, that we have very little time to enjoy the real success of the post war years

#As the Group includes representatives of TOCs, ROSCOs and Network Rail it is reasonable to assume they know more about the railway and rolling stock than the DfT (no doubt) and even members of this forum!

Brian