Class 42/Warship question

[Cowley]

Hello folks.
A friend of mine has asked me a question tonight that I don’t know the answer to, maybe somebody can help?
On the front of certain Warships there seems to be a little rectangle shaped grille to the right of the headcode box.
It’s pictured here on a photo taken from Wikipedia by Paul Miller.


Yet it doesn’t seem to appear on other class members as in my photo here...



Does anyone know what it is?
Thanks for any replies.

 

[gazthomas]

The loco in both pictures is the same. I recall an article on the temporary reason for this hole in a magazine, I'll dig it out in the morning and let you know what I find!

 

[big all]

a quick look may be a nbl feature copying the origional german design
looks like it may be for a light cluster or vent option not used
possibly removed with later rebuilds to both stop possible leaks and to be astheticaly more pleasing
https://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/RR_warship.htm

 

[Ash Bridge]

Having studied many historic shots of class 42/43s I've yet to find an example of one whilst in BR service that doesn't have these fitted. I wonder if the images provided by Mr C of D832 showing the loco without the panel is a modification that took place since its time in preservation? I notice the overhead warning flashes are of different styles on the two pictures so perhaps it's been removed on one end only of 832? Also it seems on the vast majority of locomotives these had a smooth or covered over look, but this shot below from the early 70s shows it was actually a grill, very similar to that fitted to the German V200 opposite which appears to have one either side.

 

[Cowley]

Having looked into this a bit more I have to concede that like Mr Bridge I can’t find any in service without the grille also, so Big all (great article too, thanks for that) may well be correct in thinking it’s been plated over to stop draughts or damp getting into the cab?
Very interested to see that V200s have a similar grille.

I originally wondered if it was something to do with ventilation for the cab, a few Westerns had a square grille in a similar but slightly higher position for extra ventilation because they got hot with having so much glass in the cab area from what I remember.

Gaz - If you can find that article I’d be greatful.

 

[Ash Bridge]

As you say Mr Cowley, cab ventilation does seem rather feasible and wasn't it the case that the NBL class 43 Warships were particularly bad for a build up of fumes in the cab environment....rather more so than the Swindon class 42 variants? I'm certain I've read this somewhere. We need someone like Taunton to come along now, I'm rather confident he'll have the answer.

 

[Cowley]

As you say Mr Cowley, cab ventilation does seem rather feasible and wasn't it the case that the NBL class 43 Warships were particularly bad for a build up of fumes in the cab environment....rather more so than the Swindon class 42 variants? I'm certain I've read this somewhere. We need someone like Taunton to come along now, I'm rather confident he'll have the answer.

I remember reading somewhere that the NBL ones suffered from cracks in the exhaust system (the manifolds maybe?) which caused them to be quite unpleasant in the cabs.
Looking at more photos it seems that both the preserved ones have had the grille plated over.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Looking at more photos it seems that both the preserved ones have had the grille plated over.

Ah right....so perhaps what we are seeing on your 1st shot of D832 is perhaps just a stuck on replica to make for better authenticity then, would you reckon?

 

[Cowley]

Ah right....so perhaps what we are seeing on your 1st shot of D832 is perhaps just a stuck on replica to make for better authenticity then, would you reckon?

Yes, it sort of looks like a wing mirror rubber from a 1970s Ford Cortina.

 

[delt1c]

Your are correct Mr Ash it is ventalation grill which was fitted to all class 42 and 43 from new. The NBL 21 and 22's had similair looking fitment but this was the air horns.

 

[Cowley]

Your are correct Mr Ash it is ventalation grill which was fitted to all class 42 and 43 from new. The NBL 21 and 22's had similair looking fitment but this was the air horns.

I hadn’t even thought to look at the other NBL types but as you say they have them too. Thanks for that Delt1ic.

 

[delt1c]

What surprises me here is that normally preservations are ( as far as possible ) perfectionists, so why omit this front end detail? would be so easy to include it visually. On the blue full yellow front worships it was difficult to see as was painted yellow, so surely in preservation a dummy mesh and surround could be fitted

 

[Cowley]

What surprises me here is that normally preservations are ( as far as possible ) perfectionists, so why omit this front end detail? would be so easy to include it visually. On the blue full yellow front worships it was difficult to see as was painted yellow, so surely in preservation a dummy mesh and surround could be fitted

It is quite surprising as although small it’s quite a distinctive feature.
None of the class 52 owners have found it necessary to recreate that horrible square grille fitted to some of the class...

(Two Westerns side by side at Paddington one with square grille and one without, taken by Les Tindall).
My friend said thanks for the replies.

 

[Ash Bridge]

What surprises me here is that normally preservations are ( as far as possible ) perfectionists, so why omit this front end detail? would be so easy to include it visually. On the blue full yellow front worships it was difficult to see as was painted yellow, so surely in preservation a dummy mesh and surround could be fitted

Although judging from the various images that are available online, it seems that by the start of the 70s at least The WR had replaced the grill/mesh on most machines then in service with something solid (with just the surround remaining) as if to seal the thing up perhaps as Big all suggested above to eliminate a possible source of leaks or draughts.

It is quite surprising as although small it’s quite a distinctive feature.
None of the class 52 owners have found it necessary to recreate that horrible square grille fitted to some of the class...
View attachment 56448
(Two Westerns side by side at Paddington one with square grille and one without, taken by Les Tindall).
My friend said thanks for the replies.

It's interesting how (as you say) the vent on the Western absolutely does blemish the look of the front end whereas on the less handsome Warship it doesn't detract at all from the locomotives appearance, then again the one on the 52 does look rather Vent-axia I suppose.

 

[delt1c]

Although judging from the various images that are available online, it seems that by the start of the 70s at least The WR had replaced the grill/mesh on most machines then in service with something solid (with just the surround remaining) as if to seal the thing up perhaps as Big all suggested above to eliminate a possible source of leaks or draughts.


It's interesting how (as you say) the vent on the Western absolutely does blemish the look of the front end whereas on the less handsome Warship it doesn't detract at all from the locomotives appearance, then again the one on the 52 does look rather Vent-axia I suppose.

The Western looks like a pimple on the nose , whilst the warship looks like a love spot. A bit like the MU reseptive beside the headcode box on 47,s which look like a snotty dripping nose.

 

[Cowley]

The Western looks like a pimple on the nose , whilst the warship looks like a love spot. A bit like the MU reseptive beside the headcode box on 47,s which look like a snotty dripping nose.

Love it.

 

[big all]

we are assuming D832 is the same both ends perhaps it only has the patch on one end

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Western looks like a pimple on the nose , whilst the warship looks like a love spot. A bit like the MU reseptive beside the headcode box on 47,s which look like a snotty dripping nose.

Oh lovely!

 

[Taunton]

We need someone like Taunton to come along now, I'm rather confident he'll have the answer.

Alas your confidence is sadly misplaced. I may have had all of them pass in front of me, but was never much of a Rivet Counter. I still can't identify the difference between a Swindon and an NBL loco before the number comes into view.

Regarding the "Vent Axia", I would have thought that applied to those Westerns which were retro-fitted with an unusual windscreen wiper, instead of conventional sweeping arm and blace the driver's screen had a circular electric device right in the middle of the screen that could be rotated rapidly to whizz any raindrops off. Apparently based on devices on ships. It always looked far too small to give a good view when raining, and generally an impediment to keeping a good view ahead at all times.

 

[delt1c]

Oh lovely!

Been diplomatic in my description to avoid the cane

 

[delt1c]

Often wondered why the NBL build and Swindon Build had different clasiffications? After all the 25's had more than 1 builder and traction motors but yet all were 25,s

 

[Ash Bridge]

Alas your confidence is sadly misplaced. I may have had all of them pass in front of me, but was never much of a Rivet Counter. I still can't identify the difference between a Swindon and an NBL loco before the number comes into view.

Regarding the "Vent Axia", I would have thought that applied to those Westerns which were retro-fitted with an unusual windscreen wiper, instead of conventional sweeping arm and blace the driver's screen had a circular electric device right in the middle of the screen that could be rotated rapidly to whizz any raindrops off. Apparently based on devices on ships. It always looked far too small to give a good view when raining, and generally an impediment to keeping a good view ahead at all times.

Well I'd have to admit I'm genuinely shocked that you can't be of assistance on this occasion, your always the first member that springs to mind when WR matters are the topic. Regarding the experimental rotary windscreen wiper trialled on the Western, I seem to recall a similar device was also fitted to an EM2 Co-Co electric loco at one point.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Often wondered why the NBL build and Swindon Build had different clasiffications? After all the 25's had more than 1 builder and traction motors but yet all were 25,s

Good point! never thought about that one before.....anyone?

 

[big all]

Often wondered why the NBL build and Swindon Build had different clasiffications? After all the 25's had more than 1 builder and traction motors but yet all were 25,s

wasnt it the same with the peaks somthing like the maufacturer off electrical equipment either going bust or changed part way through build ??
where as the whole batch off warships as planned as 2 seperate groups

 

[Taunton]

The spare parts needed for the two would be quite different inside the box, different engines, different transmissions (and a different concept); did they have different heating boilers?

As I understand it, though, the German V200s which they were based on had used the same manufacturers and the engines and transmissions were fully interchangeable, to the extent that locomotives could be found with one of each after a while, so they must have had the same boltholes and control connections etc. I wonder if that standardisation applied to the Warships as well, especially as the first power trains of each type were actually built in Germany.

 

[randyrippley]

wasnt it the same with the peaks somthing like the maufacturer off electrical equipment either going bust or changed part way through build ??
where as the whole batch off warships as planned as 2 seperate groups

The Peak production split was an attempt to speed up production. Crewe works was struggling with production deadlines, so part of the order was switched to Derby. However that exacerbated the pressure at Crompton Parkinson, who already had problems coping with the demand for one production line and simply didn't have the capacity to cope with two. So a decision was made to switch the later Derby builds to Brush electrical equipment. Eventually in desperation a third production line was intended - the last 20 ordered were scheduled to be assembled at Brush, but someone had the bright idea of instead building using a modified "Falcon" body and bogies...........the rest is history

 

[randyrippley]

The spare parts needed for the two would be quite different inside the box, different engines, different transmissions (and a different concept); did they have different heating boilers?

As I understand it, though, the German V200s which they were based on had used the same manufacturers and the engines and transmissions were fully interchangeable, to the extent that locomotives could be found with one of each after a while, so they must have had the same boltholes and control connections etc. I wonder if that standardisation applied to the Warships as well, especially as the first power trains of each type were actually built in Germany.

If I remember correctly the V200 had a choice of three engine manufacturers and two transmissions and were interchangeable in a mix-n-match way, even within the same loco. They even went so far as to fit transmissions with different numbers of gears and gear ratios into the same loco. The Warships were designed to work the same way, but I suspect someone saw the obvious problem of unbalanced gear changes between two bogies in the same loco. I suspect (I don't know) that the 42/43 class differentiation was there to try and stop anyone from thinking about creating a hybrid

 

[33017]

Often wondered why the NBL build and Swindon Build had different clasiffications? After all the 25's had more than 1 builder and traction motors but yet all were 25,s

Different engines, transmission and horsepower. Various more minor differences, too.

 

[big all]

The Peak production split was an attempt to speed up production. Crewe works was struggling with production deadlines, so part of the order was switched to Derby. However that exacerbated the pressure at Crompton Parkinson, who already had problems coping with the demand for one production line and simply didn't have the capacity to cope with two. So a decision was made to switch the later Derby builds to Brush electrical equipment. Eventually in desperation a third production line was intended - the last 20 ordered were scheduled to be assembled at Brush, but someone had the bright idea of instead building using a modified "Falcon" body and bogies...........the rest is history

from memmory from 50 yers ago wasnt it 12lda28a and b for peaks and 12ld28c for brush ??

 

[33017]

Regarding the grille / rubber surround next to the headcode, looking at my phot's and others both preserved loco's had them at each end until late '91. D821 had lost the A-end by early 1993 (but still had it in October 1991 after it had first been painted BSYP), and D832 the B-end in 1992 (presumably, when painted black). D821 then lost the B-end by May 1994 (when painted green), but the A-end of D832 hung on until it went from maroon to grey over the winter of 2010/11.

I can't say I'd ever noticed...