Class 416/3

[leananger]

When they took over from the 505s and then were themselves replaced by the 313s on the North London Line, was the replacement gradual or did it happen on one day?

At their peak, how many were required to run the service? Were the whole class fitted with grilles over the compartment windows? If not, is it known which ones were?

 

[Taunton]

I think you mean 501s.

Yes, I recall it all happened one day and coincided with the extension of electrification from Dalston round to North Woolwich. I recall by chance seeing one Sunday near North Woolwich a class 08-hauled engineers train dropping off and fixing in place (all in one go) the 3rd rail. I believe the change came with the new timetable in May 1985.

As I understand it there were almost immediately significant electrical difficulties on the newly electrified section of the North London line, with stray DC currents affecting the various other lines which passed underneath. Someone else probably has more detail. The changeover afterwards to the 313s was in part associated with the need to change to 25Kv on some of the sections.

The bars over the windows, the same as the Class 501 had, were apparently due to the tunnel at Hampstead being tight, though as it seems to have no issue with mainstream freights I wonder what the shortfall actually is.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Getting rid of the 501's meant the ability to close the Croxley Green depot - 313's were drafted to the Watford - Euston DC lines as there were then spares from the GN route. (cannot imagine that today) - the North London line was then at a very low point in traffic terms - so a load of old 416/3 2 car sets were allocated to work , based from Selhurst and transferred via Richmond for maintenance. Very poor units - and even the drop from 3 cars to 2 cars as sort of manageable. They had window bars fitted cos of the aforementioned Hampstead tunnel. Eventually - more 313's were made available and the 416/3 were sent off to Slade Green to help out there for a few months pending Networker deliveries. Then scrapped. It would have taken about 6 sets to work the NLL in those mid 1980's days.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Maybe a few more than 6 sets? It was every 20 minutes, and in my 1985 ABC rail guide timetable, it was 1h03 or 1h02 for Richmond/N Woolwich, plus at least a 7 min turnaround at each end.
So probably 8 units for the whole service, depending on whether the turnaround was 7 mins or 27 mins (i.e. next service out at Richmond or 2nd next), or if there was a spare unit lying round.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Maybe a few more than 6 sets? It was every 20 minutes, and in my 1985 ABC rail guide timetable, it was 1h03 or 1h02 for Richmond/N Woolwich, plus at least a 7 min turnaround at each end.
So probably 8 units for the whole service, depending on whether the turnaround was 7 mins or 27 mins (i.e. next service out at Richmond or 2nd next), or if there was a spare unit lying round.

Dementia setting in - yes 8 sets sounds right (6 for the DC lines 313's though you could manage with late starts from Watford on 5) ......

 

[JonathanH]

Didn't the class 416/3 also have a role (alongside VEPs) in getting the East Grinstead electric services underway?

They were the last EPBs on the Central division. Did the use to East Grinstead (alongside suburban duties) come between their replacement on the NLL and final move to Slade Green when the 456s came into use?

 

[leananger]

There were 34 units, what I do not understand is why so many? Did they sometimes work in pairs? Or did they work elsewhere also? Was there a dedicated subset for North London services?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Yes they worked elsewhere.
My 1986 Ian Allan ABC shows 34 units, all allocated to SU Selhurst, of which only 6313-27 had window bars for North London line services.
They were introduced in 1953, numbered 5651-84 and facelifted in 1982-84 when they were renumbered into the 63xx series.

Why so many? They were introduced for the Southern Region, not for the NLL, which effectively just used spare capacity in the fleet.

 

[NSEFAN]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but this is somewhat related. This photo shows a 4VEP unit passing Gunnersbury, with headcode 48 in 1988. Would this have been filling in for an unavailable EPB unit?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Gunnersbury and headcode 48 - not listed in the latest reference I can find, my 1984 book of SR headcodes, apart from one instance of '48' on the SE division, clearly not applicable here.
I don't think I've seen any photos of 416 units on the NLL carrying anything other than two white blanks.

I've got a vague recollection of seeing '48' as a headcode for a special working off the SW division, so maybe it was just that.