Class 395 - other possible uses

[Bosch91]

As the title says, will the class 395 ever be deployed on other routes other than hs1. Im not upto speed on them and my only real reasoning for asking this question is i know the 373's worked the ecml.

 

[JonathanH]

As the title says, will the class 395 ever be deployed on other routes other than hs1. Im not upto speed on them and my only real reasoning for asking this question is i know the 373's worked the ecml.

There aren't enough of them for the Southeastern services they operate. They will almost certainly be a fleet (of 29 units) which remains on the network they were built for throughout their working lives. Put simply, nothing else can operate the services they work and the particular features they have aren't needed elsewhere.

The 373s that worked on the East Coast did so during a period where GNER were looking to increase services and they happened to be the only spare rolling stock. They weren't the ideal option for what they ended up doing and once there were spare HSTs they were released. There are no real parallels with the 395s.

 

[notadriver]

Maybe they could work a low cost low frills service similar to the old cross country services. Margate to Birmingham. They won’t be at anywhere like pre Covid loading as those were mainly commuters.

 

[Aictos]

Maybe they could work a low cost low frills service similar to the old cross country services. Margate to Birmingham. They won’t be at anywhere like pre Covid loading as those were mainly commuters.

Doubt it very much, they're very much well used by SouthEastern passengers on HS1 services to Kent so you have to replace them as to saying that they won't be anything like Pre Covid loadings I have to disagree as they are still fairly well loaded even off peak considering how many people I've seen at various Kent stations waiting for the HS1 service or actually onboard them.

As to wanting to bring back old pre Operation Princess services, that sounds more like a solution in need of a problem - sorry to give you a dose of reality.

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe they could work a low cost low frills service similar to the old cross country services. Margate to Birmingham. They won’t be at anywhere like pre Covid loading as those were mainly commuters.

Maybe they could but the idea wouldn't have a low cost.

Of course, they already operate part of a regular Margate to Birmingham service which involves a relatively short walk on the way and carries far more passengers than a through service would.

 

[notadriver]

Maybe they could but the idea wouldn't have a low cost.

Of course, they already operate part of a regular Margate to Birmingham service which involves a relatively short walk on the way and carries far more passengers than a through service would.

Maybe they could trial by running it as some sort of ad hoc rail tour that operates weekly to see how numbers are. Whilst it is a short walk (interchange) , it is much longer if you have luggage and kids etc - maybe the convenience of a through service might sway passengers. It could call at Birmingham International creating an airport link there rather than having to use the overcrowded and expensive London airports ?

 

[JonathanH]

Whilst it is a short walk (interchange) , it is much longer if you have luggage and kids etc - maybe the convenience of a through service might sway passengers.

There is lots of discussion on here about the ten minute walk between Euston and St Pancras but actually the break in the journey might actually help with the attention span of children as does the speed and interest of HS1 and, one day, HS2. Children like fast trains, not rambling ones.

Maybe they could trial by running it as some sort of ad hoc rail tour that operates weekly to see how numbers are.

That is going to need a source of funding to support the operation. It isn't going to fill without substantial advertising. We have just had the launch of Lumo which has captured the imagination of people on this forum. I'm guessing the first trains have booked up well. A through 395 service from Birmingham to Margate, which has a very slow bit in the middle and can't use the fast bits of the current route, would need similar marketing and passengers would note they can get to their destination in half the time by changing on (behind) the Euston Road.

 

[Ianno87]

Maybe they could trial by running it as some sort of ad hoc rail tour that operates weekly to see how numbers are. Whilst it is a short walk (interchange) , it is much longer if you have luggage and kids etc - maybe the convenience of a through service might sway passengers. It could call at Birmingham International creating an airport link there rather than having to use the overcrowded and expensive London airports ?

There is lots of discussion on here about the ten minute walk between Euston and St Pancras but actually the break in the journey might actually help with the attention span of children as does the speed and interest of HS1 and, one day, HS2. Children like fast trains, not rambling ones.

I regularly walk with my kid and luggage between Euston and King's Cross. And I agree, breaking up a journey with kids by changing is actually often helpful! (I walked from Paddington to King's Cross a couple of weeks ago so my youngest would nap in his pram before our next train)

 

[paul1609]

Maybe they could work a low cost low frills service similar to the old cross country services. Margate to Birmingham. They won’t be at anywhere like pre Covid loading as those were mainly commuters.

The Marshlink services have post covid have been 4 car units but the stay cation boost to the likes of Pontins at Camber Sands and the Romney Marsh caravan parks mean that several of the morning departures have left people at Ashford because they are full and standing. A lot of these people come from Stratford on HS1. I know that despite the loss of the commuter traffic Southeastern don't have enough 395s to deal with events like West Ham home matches and the Golf open at deal so Id suggest they are going nowhere.

 

[swt_passenger]

2009…

HS1 domestics? That’ll never catch on - who would ever want to go to St Pancras anyway…

But now, (post #2), there aren’t enough of them to meet demand on their existing services. How could anyone ever imagine they’ll be used anywhere else?

 

[popeter45]

i wonder if SE ever need to order extra HS1 stock if they should go for somthing like captive double decker stock to run a trunk service on HS1 St Pancreas-Ashford only, then move 395s onto somthing like St Pancreas-Victoria loop via HS1

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d like to see more 395s. A new variation of that train for NPR services would be great!

 

[popeter45]

I’d like to see more 395s. A new variation of that train for NPR services would be great!

they prob wouldnt be 395's, more likly a 80X class as they are already rated for 140mph like the 395's just never used for it but thats assuming NPR would be a 140mph line and not faster

 

[Purple Orange]

they prob wouldnt be 395's, more likly a 80X class as they are already rated for 140mph like the 395's just never used for it but thats assuming NPR would be a 140mph line and not faster

NPR will be using the HS2 line south of Manchester, so they’d need to be capable of matching the line speed on the stretch from Piccadilly to the junction to Liverpool, or all the way down to Crewe. NPR services could also be used as an extension of the Birmingham-Manchester services too, so something capable like a 395 would be useful.

 

[HSTEd]

My own opinion is that the Class 395 is a very useful unit.

It demonstrates that higher speed units can be meaningfully used for commuter/regional operation - this will be important moving forwards.

There is no reason we couldn't have such a unit for 320/360km/h - indeed some of the mad transport schemes I push require such units!

 

[JonathanH]

It demonstrates that higher speed units can be meaningfully used for commuter/regional operation - this will be important moving forwards.

Yes, but equally a 350 shows you don't need a pointy nose to do 110mph on a fast route. Getting the track up to 125mph for a pointy nose on commuter/regional services could only ever be done in limited places on the existing network where it isn't already the case.

Euston to Milton Keynes is timed at 30 minutes on the 1043 Pendolino from Euston and 32 minutes on the 1046 Desiro. That really isn't much of a difference.

 

[popeter45]

NPR will be using the HS2 line south of Manchester, so they’d need to be capable of matching the line speed on the stretch from Piccadilly to the junction to Liverpool, or all the way down to Crewe. NPR services could also be used as an extension of the Birmingham-Manchester services too, so something capable like a 395 would be useful.

395's wouldnt be able to ordered any more as they are first gen UK A-Trains, it would be a comuter spec'd 80X instead as they are the 2nd gen A-Trains
80X's are just 395's but with updated tech and a Diesel mode instead of a DC third Rail shoe

 

[ScotGG]

The new town at Ebbsfleet is not only 20 per cent complete too.

It does make me smile that people think passenger numbers will never recover in areas like that.

Same at Stratford

 

[swt_passenger]

they prob wouldnt be 395's, more likly a 80X class as they are already rated for 140mph like the 395's just never used for it but thats assuming NPR would be a 140mph line and not faster

The 395 are actually a part of the same Hitachi AT300 family, so if the new class numbers had became available much earlier they would probably be 80x anyway…

 

[popeter45]

The 395 are actually a part of the same Hitachi AT300 family, so if the new class numbers had became available much earlier they would probably be 80x anyway…

yea i suspect so
wonder what else will end up in the 800 range, i think they will put HS2's stock as the 39X range is getting pretty full now

 

[Purple Orange]

395's wouldnt be able to ordered any more as they are first gen UK A-Trains, it would be a comuter spec'd 80X instead as they are the 2nd gen A-Trains
80X's are just 395's but with updated tech and a Diesel mode instead of a DC third Rail shoe

Yes I agree. My earlier point referenced an updated 395. Ideally 200m, but it would depend on how NPR manifests. Doors at 3rds may not be required, even though the doors on a 395 are hardly any different to end doors, just in a different position along the carriage.

 

[HSTEd]

Euston to Milton Keynes is timed at 30 minutes on the 1043 Pendolino from Euston and 32 minutes on the 1046 Desiro. That really isn't much of a difference.

Even that small journey time difference can cause significant pathing issues.

Ideally all trains would have identical, very high, performance for ease of timetabling.

 

[D365]

Ideally all trains would have identical, very high, performance for ease of timetabling.

Why does that sound familiar

 

[zwk500]

Even that small journey time difference can cause significant pathing issues.

Ideally all trains would have identical, very high, performance for ease of timetabling.

In which case we should ditch the 395s all together and only run 373 and 374 formations on HS1. It'd make timetabling of both HS and Classic networks through Kent a lot easier, but make the service offering much, much poorer.

 

[MatthewRead]

In which case we should ditch the 395s all together and only run 373 and 374 formations on HS1. It'd make timetabling of both HS and Classic networks through Kent a lot easier, but make the service offering much, much poorer.

And how would passengers travel from stations like Ashford or Ebbsfleet International to St Pancras?

 

[HSTEd]

In which case we should ditch the 395s all together and only run 373 and 374 formations on HS1. It'd make timetabling of both HS and Classic networks through Kent a lot easier, but make the service offering much, much poorer.

Or.... buy 300km/h 395-type trains?

 

[zwk500]

Or.... buy 300km/h 395-type trains?

395s stop too often to really benefit from high speed, and need to gearing for better acceleration more than outright top speed to fit in with the Kent classic services.

 

[HSTEd]

395s stop too often to really benefit from high speed, and need to gearing for better acceleration more than outright top speed to fit in with the Kent classic services.

Gearing is no longer the limiting factor it once was.

Motor and traction package technologies have advanced a long way in recent years - as modern Shinkansen performance demonstrates.

 

[zwk500]

Gearing is no longer the limiting factor it once was.

Motor and traction package technologies have advanced a long way in recent years - as modern Shinkansen performance demonstrates.

Gearing perhaps being the wrong choice of word - 'setting up' might be more what I was going for.

 

[Ianno87]

In which case we should ditch the 395s all together and only run 373 and 374 formations on HS1. It'd make timetabling of both HS and Classic networks through Kent a lot easier, but make the service offering much, much poorer.

Or.... buy 300km/h 395-type trains?

395s stop too often to really benefit from high speed, and need to gearing for better acceleration more than outright top speed to fit in with the Kent classic services.

Actually the 305s and Eurostar fleet equalise each other reasonably well - 395s stop more but have quicker acceleration to compensate.

The top speed difference only matters between Ebbsfleet and Ashford (as St Pancras-Ebbsfleet is only 140 anyway)