Class 395 "Javelin"

[Electra]

I can honestly say that this train is absolutely and positively the dogs jacobs! it is a dream to drive and very comfortable for the passengers too. Southeastern have had drivers form Eurostar beating a path to the door to drive them but have had to recruit from within first. As for being slower than eurostar and causing hold ups do not forget that the entire high speed line is bi-directional and pemissive so it is not inconcievable that a eurostar at some point could be routed to overtake a javelin in the same direction! As for the running of the Javelin on domestic routes, they had no choice other than to do this as they couldn't justify the investment for the High speed line only and yes the javelin is useless on third rail! But remember it was never designed with that in mind! Roll on HS2!!!!

 

[Danielo]

Had a ride on it today, 10.37 from St Pancras. Highly impressed. Smooth and accelerates well. Well worth the extra cash to travel in this kind of comfort if desired.

 

[j0hn0]

Hi All

I went on the 395 preview service today and it was fantastic.

pros
- fantastic acceleration
- smooth ride
- 140mph certainly felt lots faster than 125 on the 390 I came down on.
- lovely smooth door opening - wider than I expected too
- comfortable seats and plenty of leg room, even on the airline seats. A neat touch being ribbed fabric so that your back stays cool
- smaller but more windows (helps give airline seating a better view)
- a really high overall feel of quality, the armrests, the seat backs, the fold down down tables, all felt really well made and built to last.

cons (it's only fair)

- in the first coach, a group of 4 seats next to the toilet have no window at all, there is room for a window, it looks very odd.
- flying through Stratford on the way back, there appeared to be some very dodgy points just before the station, we crashed over them at full chat, but I felt that last time I went on the Eurostar.
- On the way back from Ebbsfleet, there was quite a bit of buffeting in the long tunnel, could be the shape of the doors? i don't know, but in profile, it's too fussy and looks ugly. I know it's a commuter train but because each carriage tapers in at the end and the doors aren't at the end, it just doesn't look right. Great nose though.

Overall though, fantastic trains, real effortless speed and it felt as if there was a lot more to give. Really comfortable and well made and now I can see why the goverment chose Hitachi for IEP.

Anyone else been on it yet?

 

[LouJ]

Had a ride as far as Ebbsfleet International yesterday morning. Interesting trip although there were very few customers. Four of us on the 0937 from St Pancras and perhaps 8 on the return 1005. The onboard crew were very friendly and informative. Nice to see a train crew doing their job very well.

The acceleration is superb, the ride good and the seats comfortable. No complaints and looking forward to taking a longer ride to Ashford when the full service starts. There is no comparison with 390's with the latter losing on every score. Why do Virgin always buy ill-conceived trains?

 

[MCR247]

Why do Virgin always buy ill-conceived trains?

The answer is: They dont! 390s are fantastic trains, I havent tried 395s yet (but hopefully will before or after December) that is just purely your opinion of the trains! Like personally dont like voyagers, but that dosent mean they are rubbish trains (wheter I think so or not)

PS: Why did you start a new thread J0hn0 , whats wrong with the thred thats already and everyone else has put their reviews in :?

 

[j0hn0]

The answer is: They dont! 390s are fantastic trains, I havent tried 395s yet (but hopefully will before or after December) that is just purely your opinion of the trains! Like personally dont like voyagers, but that dosent mean they are rubbish trains (wheter I think so or not)

PS: Why did you start a new thread J0hn0 , whats wrong with the thred thats already and everyone else has put their reviews in :?

That thread got quite long, and this is specifically about the preview service but if the mods move this on to that thread then I'd have no qualms.

I agree with what you say about 390's.

Yesterday was the prime example of the right trains for the right route. 52 minute non-stop on a 390 fully tilting, then 17 minutes to Ebbsfleet on the high-speed line. 2 fantastic services, except the pendos aircon was leaking so much one seat was cordoned off.

 

[LouJ]

The 395s show their roots - quality trains from a country where railways are part of the national pysche - i.e. Japan. Here trains are comfortable, offer good views and (even for tall Europeans) plenty of space. The 395s are in reality offering a suburban service yet they far exceed the comforts of the 390s.

I travelled down from Stafford in a Pendo with no aircon on 3 coaches. In the stifling heat staff were offering free water to passengers. My reserved "seat" was cramped, had no window and a bulkhead immediately in front of my eyes. The 390s were designed for profit and not passengers. Their original seating plan was altered to cram in more seats ...

Had the 390s been used in other parts of the world they would have been slammed by passengers and press alike. Try travelling on Swiss Railways equivalent (every seat has a window) or the Italian versions (same story) - you might also try some of the Japanese and Chinese high speed trains. They all make Virgins efforts look pathetic - the 390s are second rate emus for a 2nd rate railway. Try the real thing on the worlds leading railways and you might come to the same view.

The 395s are superb - I travel to work on 350s - hopefully 350/1s but too often 350/2s - I have had more room in the rush hour in Bombay.

Britain's railways are improving with units like the 395s - however most of the country is still in the First Division with promotion to the Championship still a fair way off. Dreams of playing in the Premiership are light years away .... !

 

[MCR247]

I travelled down from Stafford in a Pendo with no aircon on 3 coaches. In the stifling heat staff were offering free water to passengers. My reserved "seat" was cramped, had no window and a bulkhead immediately in front of my eyes. The 390s were designed for profit and not passengers. Their original seating plan was altered to cram in more seats ...

Yeah, but from London - Glasgow would you rather stand or have a seat?

 

[devon_metro]

How many Glasgow to London services are full and standing? :?

How many Glasgow to London passengers don't have reservations? :?

 

[MCR247]

How many Glasgow to London services are full and standing? :?

How many Glasgow to London passengers don't have reservations? :?

well fine then, if there wasnt any seats and you were going from a to b would you rather sit down without a window or stand?

 

[ChrisEJ1993]

I'd love to ride on these services, but the preview prices are so high for someone my age! :P

 

[j0hn0]

yeah, booked in advance it cost me £45 and then the £3.50 surcharge from Rugby to Ebbsfleet.

For me thats good value tho considering the only stop was the change of London terminus

 

[Mojo]

Interesting to have a Pendolino v Class 395 discussion here which generally seems to be in favour of the 395s over the Pendolino, but I seem to remember a few months ago many people complaining that HST2 was awarded to Hitachi over a British trainbuilder.

 

[LouJ]

Sadly the Pendos have suffered from the greed of their operator. I was chatting to the contractor who provided the seats for the pendos anddas originally designed they had 2 = 2 seating in standard and 2+1 in first with tables centered around the windows (similar to the 395s) but the desire to stuff the bodies with seats meant the original design was changed to what we now have to suffer. Elsewhere in the world this would not be accepted as service provision is seen as the driver for profit and not the pure greed stance taken by UK TOCs.

 

[matt]

Class 395 topics merged

 

[ukrob]

Sadly the Pendos have suffered from the greed of their operator. I was chatting to the contractor who provided the seats for the pendos anddas originally designed they had 2 = 2 seating in standard and 2+1 in first with tables centered around the windows (similar to the 395s) but the desire to stuff the bodies with seats meant the original design was changed to what we now have to suffer. Elsewhere in the world this would not be accepted as service provision is seen as the driver for profit and not the pure greed stance taken by UK TOCs.

Only four posts on the site, three of which are slagging off 390s.

Can you please explain this "greed of the operator who decided to cram in more seats"?

Would it be the same operator who is now having the fleet lengthened because there are not enough seats anymore despite running the service three times as frequently?

I was chatting to the contractor who provided the seats for the pendos anddas originally designed they had 2 = 2 seating in standard and 2+1 in first with tables centered around the windows

Thats exactly how they are - 2+2 in standard and 2+1 with tables at windows in 1st so I'm not sure what your point is?:?

 

[MCR247]

Class 395 topics merged

Thank You

 

[466.networkers]

I had the pleasure of travelling on the 1407 SPX - EBD and 1437 return on 395005. The train was extremely smooth, much better than a 390 anyday.

The onboard staff were pleasant, and talked to myself and my friend about the Javelin whilst comparing them with the Pendolinos.

The upgrade fare was £6.20 (£3.10 each way) on top of a ODT (£13.60) so it was reasonable, just a shame they aren't permitted to do 140mph outside of a tunnel!

Overall I am very impressed with the 395s, I can see myself paying extra each time to use them to and from London from December.

Thanks
Ryan

 

[jon0844]

I have no doubt I'd pay the extra when I go to Kent, but that's because it's only a small premium (and, I come in by train to King's Cross/St Pancras in the first place).

I really do feel for the commuters who will have to pay that premium every day if they want to enjoy the luxury! At the end of the day, the commuters won't care that it's a newer train - especially when the trains they currently use are hardly bad. I wonder how many will use it for a month or so (treating themselves if they pay for a monthly season) and then go back to the 'old' trains?

 

[LouJ]

The 395 crew were saying, when I travelled, that many commnuters were not prepared to pay the supplement - they felt the surcharge was too much. This had meant that commuters using the service were in general those who had better jobs and salaries. This would probably mean an elite group of commuters willing to pay surcharges to gain speed on the journey to and from work. This might be viewed as a comparison to road users using the M6 toll to avoid congestion on the M6 - here again an elite group of commuters has formed because of price.

Returning to my point of comparing them with 390s I underline the issue I have with Virgin who for commercial reasons have crammed in as many seats as possible in standard class. I reiterate that as originally conceived standard class was 2 + 2 around tables, which were on the centre line of the windows. Therefore everyone had the benefit of a view with larger tables similar to those on the coaches the pendos replaced. What happened in reality was that extra rows of the eats were added reducing the level of comfort for all passengers in standard class. This was done for profit and was a siginificant loss of comfort for passengers. The additionmof extra coaches to the rakes does not change the basic argument of comfort. The pendos are NOT comfortable - the 395s are.

 

[ukrob]

Returning to my point of comparing them with 390s I underline the issue I have with Virgin who for commercial reasons have crammed in as many seats as possible in standard class. I reiterate that as originally conceived standard class was 2 + 2 around tables, which were on the centre line of the windows. Therefore everyone had the benefit of a view with larger tables similar to those on the coaches the pendos replaced. What happened in reality was that extra rows of the eats were added reducing the level of comfort for all passengers in standard class. This was done for profit and was a siginificant loss of comfort for passengers. The additionmof extra coaches to the rakes does not change the basic argument of comfort. The pendos are NOT comfortable - the 395s are.

In that case, I will reiterate my point which you seemed to avoid answering.

Can you please explain this "greed of the operator who decided to cram in more seats"?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that they were originally designed with standard class all around tables.

Would it be the same operator who is now having the fleet lengthened because there are not enough seats anymore despite running the service three times as frequently?

Comfort is individual opinion.

 

[jon0844]

First class ticket holders can use HS1, which means I'd imagine there will be quite a few people paying the premium for first class as, technically, it's no longer 50% more than the standard ticket with HS1 and may now seem worthwhile.

 

[87015]

Would it be the same operator who is now having the fleet lengthened because there are not enough seats anymore despite running the service three times as frequently?

Birmingham (all day) and Manchester (peak and shoulder peak) have been half hourly since Intercity days. And anywhere south of Warrington has basically been shafted if you don't want to travel to London. Watford, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford all effectively removed from the WCML Intercity network. The extra trains were hardly added because the existing trains were overcrowded, more to ensure a publicity grabbing "massive service improvement" for the £9bn investment and to leave no paths for anyone else who wanted in. Feel free to go and look how half-empty the Pendos roll into Cov off-peak from London or watch the Voyager leave MK going north with one coach load of passengers spread around.

 

[ukrob]

Birmingham (all day) and Manchester (peak and shoulder peak) have been half hourly since Intercity days. And anywhere south of Warrington has basically been shafted if you don't want to travel to London. Watford, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford all effectively removed from the WCML Intercity network. The extra trains were hardly added because the existing trains were overcrowded, more to ensure a publicity grabbing "massive service improvement" for the £9bn investment and to leave no paths for anyone else who wanted in. Feel free to go and look how half-empty the Pendos roll into Cov off-peak from London or watch the Voyager leave MK going north with one coach load of passengers spread around.

So you are saying that Birmingham services should have been half hourly all day, yet are asking me to look at half empty ones at Coventry. Voyagers don't (usually) work Birmingham and Manchester services which is what was being discussed

Anyhow, I'm waiting for the person I responded to (not that there is anything wrong with someone else responding!) about their claims as they seem to be coming from an anti-Virgin stance rather than following any logic

 

[LouJ]

In that case, I will reiterate my point which you seemed to avoid answering.

Can you please explain this "greed of the operator who decided to cram in more seats"?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that they were originally designed with standard class all around tables.

Would it be the same operator who is now having the fleet lengthened because there are not enough seats anymore despite running the service three times as frequently?

Comfort is individual opinion.

Originally the seating followed what was then standard inter-city seating 2=" around tables. This was amended to a mixture of aircarft style seating and some around tables. This was based on 4 passengers per window bay. If you look at first class this is what has been done - some tables and some airline style seating all with 2 or 4 passengers per window bay. However some bright accountant no doubt came along and realised that the earnings per square metre of floor space in standard could be improved by shunting the seats closer together as done by airlines throughout the world. Seat pitch has been significantly decreased so has comfort.

I have just returned friom Walsall to Birmingham New Street on a refurbished 153 - guess what the seat pitch is probably better than a pendolino and you can see out of the windows ... enough said. Too often TOCs ignore passenger comfort and concentrate on return on shareholders capital. This is waht Virgin has efffectively done with pendos. Just see what they are like in Switzerland and Italy and you will soon get an idea of how good they could have been rather than what can we get away with in terms of the passenger experience.

There are plenty of seats on many services and that's why there are increasing levels of discounting becasue seat inventory is not been sold. Extra coaches are being added because that is part of the agreement between the TOC to keep the franchise.

 

[MCR247]

The thing is, VT probably realised, that they are the quickest wayto get to their destinations, and people communting might just want to get home?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW The 395 isnt called the Javelin!

 

[ukrob]

Originally the seating followed what was then standard inter-city seating 2=" around tables. This was amended to a mixture of aircarft style seating and some around tables. This was based on 4 passengers per window bay. If you look at first class this is what has been done - some tables and some airline style seating all with 2 or 4 passengers per window bay. However some bright accountant no doubt came along and realised that the earnings per square metre of floor space in standard could be improved by shunting the seats closer together as done by airlines throughout the world. Seat pitch has been significantly decreased so has comfort.

I have never heard anything to suggest that Virgin envisaged standard class as all bays around tables, I think it is frankly an absurd suggestion for any operator. It seems to have turned into gospel because a contractor who provided seats said so when you were chatting. There was never anything in the railway press (enthusiast or professional) that confirms what you are saying.

Extra coaches are being added because that is part of the agreement between the TOC to keep the franchise.

That goes without saying. Do you think it would have been in the agreement to lengthen the trains if they were all running around empty?

 

[A60K]

I would just point out that the current mix of 'airline' and 'table' seating in Standard Class has been routine on intercity trains in the UK for 30 years.

I don't believe that Virgin would have planned to not have airline seating in their new trains - airline seating gives you much greater leg room and privacy, and not everyone wants or prefers tables.

 

[jon0844]

When I'm on my own, I always go for airline seating. Why would you want to face two strangers when commuting? They're the enemy!!

 

[350401]

Perhaps going slightly off topic, but I'd agree that Virgin don't *need* 3tph to/from Manchester in my own experience. I've been on a few rush-hour services to/from London in last few weeks, and to give examples the 06.59 Wilmslow-Euston is usually only half full if that. I've had 2 seats to myself for the entire journey every time I've been down. Nice, but given the lack of paths its meant for Northern in the rush-hour, not exactly efficient use of track. I'd rather have the 08.19 CEL-MCR back than have 2 seats to myself the odd time I go to London, and I'm sure most commuters in the South Mcr area would agree.

However, I agree its a tricky decision for Virgin to make. 2tph at rush-hour was not enough - it was always overcrowded. Probably I'd say 2x11 coach 390's would be a better idea than 3x9 coach as currently exists. Extra seats for Virgin Customers and more paths in the rush-hour for commuter trains. What always strikes me with the 390's and the 220s/221s is how much wasted space there is in each coach - only around 2/3rds of each coach has seats in - the rest is either electrical equipment or huge loos! Bring back the Mark 3 arrangement any day - those coaches made full use of the space. Maybe thats the answer - better designed rolling stock each taking more passengers per coach, rather than more trains per hour?