Class 395 "Javelin"

[adambro]

The new Hitachi Class 395s look very nice. I've been for a very short trip within the Ashford depot on 395002.

Nothing particularly revolutionary about the interior. Reminds me a bit of TPE's Class 185s.

The unique features are up in the cabs, a domestic UK train fitted with in cab signalling. It'll be exciting when these are introduced to be able to travel domestic at 140mph, something which has been promised on NR but yet to be achieved due to the hurdles of introducing in cab signalling.

Due to fully enter service late 2009 with some introduced from mid 2009 as I understand. Supposed to be starting some daylight testing on the mainline within the next month or so. Not sure how this will be fitted in around Eurostar services on the CTRL though because I thought tests were done under possessions. Perhaps they've got past that stage of testing.

 

[Nym]

They do look nice

Btw. I mentioned this after a conference with Nitwit Rail, and it seems that they are in no rush to develop in cab signaling, it's 3 blokes in a shed!

If they pulled their finger out, they could roll out in cab signaling on every single mainline in the country within 2 years, including development time, or better yet, just buy in ERTMS!

 

[P156KWJ]

the problem with having fast trains on SouthEastern is that you will eventually need more lines if capacity is increased, otherwise you won't be able to run at those speeds

 

[O L Leigh]

They will run at the existing linespeed when off the CTRL, mainly because of the limitations of the 3rd rail supply.

Speaking of which, I wonder just how these units will perform with regard to their energy consumption. I seem to recall that Hitachi were making great play that their trains would not use any more juice than an Electrostar of equivalent length and would be able to keep to the same timings. Given that the Javelins are significantly heavier than the Bombardier opposition and are pulling a much higher gearing to allow for 140mph running when on the CTRL, either Hitachi are lying Einstein is. I'm no genius, but I wouldn't like to bet against Herr Professor.

I will be shortly opening a sweep on how long it takes before Nitwit Rail have to undertake further upgrades to the power supply within the Javelins area of operations. Any takers...?

O L Leigh

 

[Nym]

Well, Hitachi aren't any better at traction motors than the likes of Bombardier, in fact I think bombardier make the best you can get... if I'm not mistaken. So the power supplies may have some problems

 

[TheSlash]

Well, Hitachi aren't any better at traction motors than the likes of Bombardier, in fact I think bombardier make the best you can get... if I'm not mistaken. So the power supplies may have some problems

From what i've heard since the introduction of Electrostars, a 3 coach 377 struggles to pull the skin off a rice pudding. AC Motors you see, nice to look at on paper, but no grunt when it counts. Give me good old English Electric 407 series wound DC motors, for men with hair on they're chest 8)

 

[Phoenix]

would it be better with siemens equipment?

 

[Nym]

Well, when they deliver 3Phase to the railway, then it will work better

 

[O L Leigh]

AC Motors you see, nice to look at on paper, but no grunt when it counts. Give me good old English Electric 407 series wound DC motors, for men with hair on they're chest 8)

Not sure that's entirely true.

A Cl360 Doodlebug is pretty sprightly and get's away from a stand much better than then the DC-motored stuff on the GEML, even the lighter and lower geared Cl315's.

O L Leigh

 

[Nym]

360s if I'm thinking right have clever motors though, that actualy work on 3phase from 1phase, the work of whiches I say!

 

[P156KWJ]

just get some TGVs! Much better

 

[395 Olympic Javelin]

Has 395001, 395002 and 395003 have there been testing in the day time yet?

 

[vc-10]

I'm looking forward to the Javelins... they look great! Just wish we had something quicker out west! It's 100mph beyond Reading on the Westbury line I think, and from Salisbury it's 159s!

 

[ungreat]

Ah,you can't beat a class 45 with 8 MK 2s on full chat when the driver lets the eager(who me...lol)secondman have a go from Leicester to St Pancras

Or,for that,a class 50 out of Waterloo to Exeter with 10 mk 2's as a naive 17 years old secondman whose driver said"Want a go lad?"...did I!!!

 

[LucaZone]

Have the Javelins started day time testing yet?

 

[68]

Has 395001, 395002 and 395003 have there been testing in the day time yet?

Yes - I believe so.


140MPH doesn't seem like, believe me, I went on it a few moths ago (start of April, end of March) and it was O.K. Comfortable though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I believe they have tested during the day.


140MPH doesn't seem that fast, I went on it end of March early April time I think and it's a comfortable train, plugs for laptops, comfortable chairs,spacious and good views! You can sit on it for hours!!!

 

[jopsuk]

140 is, to be honest, a bit c*** isn't it? the rest of the world will be laughing at us for getting so excited by 140mph. Hell, we had 225s (ooh, what does that number come to when converted from km to miles? Oh yes..) testing at that speed up and down the sections of the ECML that were converted around two decades ago. Three decades ago, we had an APT-P hitting 162mph.

Even the Americans have a service that hits 150mph.

 

[Edvid]

You can go as fast as you like (within reason) during testing, it's the service speed that matters most. In that context 162mph APTs etc are irrelevant, although the 91s admittedly were prevented from doing more than 125mph in service due to a then (presumably) new HMRI requiring in-cab signalling for services faster than 125mph.

Besides, the 186mph HS1 stretch between the Thames Tunnels and Ashford International isn't long enough to justify a higher max. speed for the 395s. Imagine how much more expensive the CTRL project would have been if the tunnels between London St Pancras and Ebbsfleet International were built large enough to permit higher speeds, and they're big anyway!

Speed is important, but it's certainly not an 'all or nothing' factor (an exaggeration perhaps but you get the drift).

 

[90019]

Even the Americans have a service that hits 150mph.

Maybe so, but over the whole route, the average speed is about the same as the ECML.

 

[jon0844]

I accept that speed isn't the most important factor. A direct route, increased capacity and a more comfortable ride will probably all rank higher for the commuter.

But, everyone in the industry seems to rave about the speed because it justifies a pretty hefty price hike!

If 140mph wasn't 'bigged up' so much, it would have been no different to any other railway. You'd expect any new track builds to be straighter and of a similar specification (or would hope so anyway).

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't believe that it has much to do with the ultimate maximum speed but with the comparable journey times with the Javelin on the CTRL versus the conventional service.

I'm no expert on SET's timetables but the Javelin can top out at 40mph more than the conventional service, and that assumes that the conventional service can actually reach 100mph along the majority of it's journey. As I say, I'm no expert, but I would have to confess that I can't see where the conventional service gets anywhere near this top speed. Therefore the Javelin is already at least 50% faster assuming that it stops the same number of times and can run flat out for the same proportion of it's journey.

However, checking SET's website shows that the current fastest time between London and Ashford International is 57 minutes with a typical journey time of around 1hr 15mins. When the Javelin service promises a journey time of 37 minutes between the same two points you are looking at almost half the current fastest time.

140mph may only be 15mph more than the maximum speed permitted in the UK for the past few decades and be small beer compared to some of the speed records set by test trains, but it is a massive leap forward for the people that the Javelin service will actually benefit. This makes it a good news story in spite of how folk may want to pick holes in it.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

I'm only picking holes in the price and the tactics to get existing commuters to switch and pay the premium, not the service which I think will be (is) fantastic!

Bring on more new railway lines and reduced journey times, but let's not suddenly make all journeys much more expensive. The recent fare hikes have been enough, thank you very much!

 

[poshbakerloo]

I like these trains...but won't they run at lower speeds that the other trains on that route? Won't that cause problems with signaling etc...

 

[j0hn0]

I like these trains...but won't they run at lower speeds that the other trains on that route? Won't that cause problems with signaling etc...

I thought that too, similar to the Ansaldobreda sets ordered by NShighspeed in Holland, they are also built to a 140mph top speed and yet will be running mostly on 186mph high speed track with the Thalys.

perhaps someone could clarify?

 

[jopsuk]

Good timetabling and intelligent in-cab signalling should sort it out surely? There's only 19 to 20 Eurostar services a day. A lot of the Javelin services will be heading off at Ebbsfleet- I believe line speed to there is in the main lower than 300km/h, especially north of the Thames?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Good timetabling and intelligent in-cab signalling should sort it out surely? There's only 19 to 20 Eurostar services a day. A lot of the Javelin services will be heading off at Ebbsfleet- I believe line speed to there is in the main lower than 300km/h, especially north of the Thames?

Exactly.
Remember that the Eurostar services are already timetabled to leave adequate time for Eurotunnel freight, and because that slower traffic doesn't run through to St.Pancras then these slots in the timetable are avail for local services - and that's before you start doing anything creative with the timetables.

 

[freetoview33]

It would be good if the new eurostar in 10 - 15 years are capable of 200/220mph and go that speed.
I'd think domestic services on high speed 1 should at least 160mph.
140mph is only 15mph more than our current services, it's not really much faster.
Considering Virgin want to do 135mph on the west coast main line in places

 

[jon0844]

And considering our NXEC Mk4's can also go at 140mph but can't because of signalling.. and how old are these trains?!

140mph is obviously good, but it's not so amazing that we should be saying how proud we are to have high-speed rail in the UK, and that it is acceptable to charge a premium for it.

Will these premiums be charged always on the route, or will there be a time when it's considered to be paid off? Mind you, looking at the QE2 bridge and the lies we were told there, I guess not.

 

[Aictos]

I might be taking a ride on them this week while they undertake the last bit of testing before they enter public service, woohoo

 

[EWS 58038]

I thought that too, similar to the Ansaldobreda sets ordered by NShighspeed in Holland,

It not Highspeed... but HiSpeed. And it will take probably years before the V250 will enter revenue earning service. Next Thursday I'll be on a staff only test run over the High Speed Line between Schiphol Airport and Rotterdam. But that is with TRAXX + ICr. PRIO coaches.