Class 390 Windows

[Huntergreed]

I was on the pendolino service to oxenholme today when I noticed that the window pillars were the largest I had seen on any unit. Does anyone know why they are so wide? Their reflection in the window completely ruin some of the view you get looking down the track

 

[najaB]

I was on the pendolino service to oxenholme today when I noticed that the window pillars were the largest I had seen on any unit. Does anyone know why they are so wide? Their reflection in the window completely ruin some of the view you get looking down the track

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!

In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

 

[asylumxl]

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!

In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

Just to add, the 390s have reinforcement running throughout the entire length of the carriage, both above and below the windows. I think Grayrigg proved their strength quite well.

Complaints about their windows is certainly something I've only really seen on railway forums.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!

In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

To be fair, that size of wall between the windows is a standard part of the Pendolino design. The Euro-Pendolino is the same, the UK one is just squashed vertically and so the windows are scaled down a bit accordingly (they aren't big on the Euro-Pendolino either).

It's just a feature of that design.

 

[NSE]

To be fair, that size of wall between the windows is a standard part of the Pendolino design. The Euro-Pendolino is the same, the UK one is just squashed vertically and so the windows are scaled down a bit accordingly (they aren't big on the Euro-Pendolino either).

It's just a feature of that design.

Interesting to read that. I too remember reading about how the strength was very well demonstrated at Grayrigg.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!

In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

Really? I thought that the window width was similar on European Pendolini as well. Voyagers had the same structural requirements at the time of service entry and have much bigger windows.

 

[najaB]

Really? I thought that the window width was similar on European Pendolini as well. Voyagers had the same structural requirements at the time of service entry and have much bigger windows.

Voyagers weren't specified as 140mph trains though. I was speaking to the overall size of the windows, not just the width of the pillars (which is more noticeable because of how short they are).

 

[Clansman]

I was on the pendolino service to oxenholme today when I noticed that the window pillars were the largest I had seen on any unit. Does anyone know why they are so wide? Their reflection in the window completely ruin some of the view you get looking down the track

Probably just due to the design on the train itself, as opposed to safety requirements as such. Although that being said of course, the structural integrity did prove itself in the Grayrigg crash.

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!
In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

Agreed. The cavalry will be out in force, along with the bog squad.

Voyagers weren't specified as 140mph trains though. I was speaking to the overall size of the windows, not just the width of the pillars (which is more noticeable because of how short they are).

The 225s are proof that you can have 140mph tilting trains without sacrificing windows, while meeting the requirements - although as far as safety goes the Pendolino design enhances it by a long shot.

 

[Nym]

The 225s are proof that you can have 140mph tilting trains without sacrificing windows, while meeting the requirements - although as far as safety goes the Pendolino design enhances it by a long shot.

The 225s that where built to older standards, that never did tilt and even if they did, wouldn't have tilted anywhere near as far?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Voyagers weren't specified as 140mph trains though. I was speaking to the overall size of the windows, not just the width of the pillars (which is more noticeable because of how short they are).

I don't think it's purely UK 140mph structural requirements, it's just the way the Pendolino (all Pendolinos) is designed.

ICEs are designed for 186mph+ and don't have tiny windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

that never did tilt and even if they did, wouldn't have tilted anywhere near as far?

What's tilt got to do with the size of the windows? (Clue: nothing whatsoever)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Complaints about their windows is certainly something I've only really seen on railway forums.

They are small, but to me they are quite well positioned and as such, provided you're not against a blank wall, I find the view out is still quite good.

Little beats (on the WCML past or present) a Voyager's massive windows over Shap, though.

 

[najaB]

I don't think it's purely UK 140mph structural requirements, it's just the way the Pendolino (all Pendolinos) is designed.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean it was a blanket requirement - what I was trying to say is that if you want a 140mph Pendolino that fits UK gauge those were the windows you were going to get.

Other manufacturer's designs, or other requirements have given us different windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean it was a blanket requirement - what I was trying to say is that if you want a 140mph Pendolino that fits UK gauge those were the windows you were going to get.

Yes, I agree. If you look at a Euro-Pendolino it's basically just the same train scaled down in all dimensions[1] to fit our small loading gauge.

[1] I know it isn't quite *that* simple in reality.

 

[daikilo]

Probably a structural design choice to manage weight; holes with glass in tend to be heavy, relatively.

 

[Nym]

What's tilt got to do with the size of the windows? (Clue: nothing whatsoever)

10 years of progress on safety standards is certainly relevant if you want to snip out part of the post, I'll just re-mention it.

 

[rebmcr]

ICEs are designed for 186mph+ and don't have tiny windows.

And the major accident involving an ICE was catastrophic.

 

[J-2739]

And the major accident involving an ICE was catastrophic.

That was the ICE 1 though. The ICE 3 is the only one that can reach -186mph.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Reading the OP I have the feeling he was actually asking about the thickness of the wall rather than the length and depth of the windows and the length of the pillars?

In which case I believe it is because of the insulation fitted inside the panels which cannot be squeezed any further because the actual structure of the bodyside is made with honeycombe aluminium ( I have a sample of the 390 honeycombe at home somewhere and it's about 20mm thick ).

 

[whoosh]

If someone has some time on their hands - a challenge!

What has a greater area of glass, a standard class intermediate Pendolino coach, or a Mark 3 buffet car?

I don't know the answer, but I reckon it'll be close.

 

[pdeaves]

Reading the OP I have the feeling he was actually asking about the thickness of the wall rather than the length and depth of the windows and the length of the pillars?

That's how I read it, too (hence the bit about the reflections). The offset between wall and glass is certainly quite large (relatively) on 390s. Not enough to do anything useful with like put a cup on, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

10 years of progress on safety standards is certainly relevant if you want to snip out part of the post, I'll just re-mention it.

I took no issue with that part, so I didn't see any need to quote it while correctly taking issue with the part that was incorrect (tilt does not equal small windows - you ever been on a Voyager? They have the largest windows on the network, I reckon, vertically at least - 380s probably get that accolade horizontally!)

 

[Huntergreed]

Reading the OP I have the feeling he was actually asking about the thickness of the wall rather than the length and depth of the windows and the length of the pillars?.

Hi there

That's what I originally meant, but I also agree that the distance between windows and size of windows are disappointing in my past experience.

 

[najaB]

That's what I originally meant, but I also agree that the distance between windows and size of windows are disappointing in my past experience.

In that case the answer is even more simple: because that's the way Pendolinos are built.

 

[w1bbl3]

And the major accident involving an ICE was catastrophic.

The rear of the train hit a bridge at 120mph I'd highly surprised if any current high speed train would have faired better.

 

[43096]

And the major accident involving an ICE was catastrophic.

Run a Pendolino under/into a collapsing bridge at 120mph+ and the structural integrity is going to be similarly compromised.

 

[Bevan Price]

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!

In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

I think the main problem is not the windows - more the silly placing of seats relative to the windows. A model of how not to design a coach layout in my opinion.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Oh no, the red rag is waving just waiting for the bull to turn up!

In short it was to get the necessary to make the windows that size to make the structure strong enough within the UK loading gauge.

and the passenger survivability of the cl 390 as proven by Greyrigg means that the powers that be are in no hurry to mandate larger windows than the builders wish to put in their their

 

[Bletchleyite]

and the passenger survivability of the cl 390 as proven by Greyrigg means that the powers that be are in no hurry to mandate larger windows than the builders wish to put in their their

Other builders are happily providing larger windows. I did mention the Voyager, but newer Desiros are far from stingy in that regard. The Class 800, also a 140mph EMU, appears to have reasonably-sized windows.

 

[DarloRich]

Just to add, the 390s have reinforcement running throughout the entire length of the carriage, both above and below the windows. I think Grayrigg proved their strength quite well.

Complaints about their windows is certainly something I've only really seen on railway forums.

you don't speak to many real people then! Many people I talk to (friends & family who have no interest in trains) talk about the "poor" windows in the virgin bendy trains.

they also talk about the uncomfortable & badly placed seats and the way if you have a window seat the window sill seems to reduce your available space.

it is all anecdotal of course but my experience differs to yours.

If someone has some time on their hands - a challenge!

What has a greater area of glass, a standard class intermediate Pendolino coach, or a Mark 3 buffet car?

I don't know the answer, but I reckon it'll be close.

it isnt the total area of glass that is the problem but the layout and vision slit effect of the Pendolino windows.