Class 387 to GN

[class387]

Diagrams change as of Monday with further 387s coming into service.. new services are below (includes the existing, which remain)

Morning
2R00 04:14 Kings Cross (KGX) to Letchworth (LET) - staff train
1R41 06:13 LET to KGX
2C04 07:05 Cambridge (CBG) to KGX
1P47 07:06 Peterborough (PBO) to KGX (8 car)
2C39 08:55 CBG to KGX
2R39 10:00 LET to KGX (8 car)

Afternoon
2C26 16:53 KGX to CBG
1C96 18:23 KGX to CBG (8 car)
2C59 18:55 CBG to KGX
1C21 20:15 CBG to KGX (8 car)
1P80 21:22 KGX to PBO (8 car)

This this meant to be the 07:05 from King's Cross to Cambridge?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71206/2016/10/26/advanced

EDIT: Too Late!

 

[Skimble19]

Any chance you know what service will be a 387 on Sunday to get the 8 car to Peterborough ready for Monday morning?

Theres no 387s scheduled for passenger services on Sunday at the moment, plus if they were to run when its dark they require dispatchers at a fair few stations, some of which won't have them on Sundays yet, so it'll run up there ECS.

Wonder if the seven 321s that aren't going to Greater Anglia will remain with Great Northern for the time being.

321s will be gone by the end of the year, with 317s going by May.

2C04 should be 0705 from King's Cross to Cambridge, surely? There isn't a 0705 the other way.

Thanks for posting, by the way! Nice to see that 1C96 is going over - let's see what they're like on a non-stop run to Welwyn North...

Haha it certainly is, must have been tired when typing! Post now corrected.

 

[D365]

321s will be gone by the end of the year, with 317s going by May.

Interesting. Any clues on where the seven 321s might be rehomed?

 

[Failed Unit]

Oh, that's my regular. Will be interesting - it generally leaves Arlesey full and standing, has quite a changeover at Hitchin, then is full enough to leave passengers behind at Hitchin. Wonder if the wider corridor will help?

Because the seats have arm rests you will find the standing area is actually not much better than the 3+2 stock. What was this service formed with in the past? If it was a 3+2 unit you will have some unhappy punters. Actually you probably will if it was a 365, as they had decent standing room. I am sure the 1823 Cambridge service used to be 365s.

 

[RichardN]

At WGC it may be possible to split the SDO, plus the platforms here can accommodate 9 cars, meaning that perhaps the SDO would be 1.5 cars at each end on platforms 2 and 3 (I am less sure of the signal positions on platform 1 and platform 4 is rarely used anyway).

I've never seen SDO split either at half a coach or with both a front and back closed section.* Always the rear coaches not opening. Can anybody supply a counter example?

* Except maybe where a single door is opened.

 

[jamieP]

Theres no 387s scheduled for passenger services on Sunday at the moment, plus if they were to run when its dark they require dispatchers at a fair few stations, some of which won't have them on Sundays yet, so it'll run up there ECS.


321s will be gone by the end of the year, with 317s going by May.


Haha it certainly is, must have been tired when typing! Post now corrected.

Since found up its running in the usual ECS path from Hornsey Sunday night, am looking forward to being the first to except a 387 onto the Nene.

 

[Class377/5]

I've never seen SDO split either at half a coach or with both a front and back closed section.* Always the rear coaches not opening. Can anybody supply a counter example?

* Except maybe where a single door is opened.

Always worked in whole coaches until the 700s which can do half a coach of set.

 

[stut]

Because the seats have arm rests you will find the standing area is actually not much better than the 3+2 stock. What was this service formed with in the past? If it was a 3+2 unit you will have some unhappy punters. Actually you probably will if it was a 365, as they had decent standing room. I am sure the 1823 Cambridge service used to be 365s.

Been 317s for a few years now, then 321s in the last couple of weeks. Hasn't been 365s for a long time!

We'll see. I'm an evil cyclist as well, so really hoping it doesn't result in people hating me even more than they do at present...

 

[hwl]

I've never seen SDO split either at half a coach or with both a front and back closed section.* Always the rear coaches not opening. Can anybody supply a counter example?

* Except maybe where a single door is opened.

TfL SDO can be done for each set of doors if required but at the rear not opening by X doors.

 

[D365]

Theres no 387s scheduled for passenger services on Sunday at the moment, plus if they were to run when its dark they require dispatchers at a fair few stations, some of which won't have them on Sundays yet, so it'll run up there ECS.

Just seen this, that's a pity as I normally take the train up to Peterborough on a Sunday night. Though maybe I will sight it on passing Nene CS.

 

[jon0844]

Because the seats have arm rests you will find the standing area is actually not much better than the 3+2 stock.

Yes, the aisles do still seem rather cramped so it does seem like the 387s can't really replace the 317s and 321s unless, as I hoped, there would be strengthened services.

As that isn't happening until 2018, we must wait for the 700s which WILL have the extra standing room needed.

I know people would sooner have a seat, but being able to move more people overall is what matters, and the 387s are a bit 'snug'. They really do show the benefits of having the seats on the 700 a bit narrower and tucked over more, giving significantly more walking room.

 

[bramling]

Because the seats have arm rests you will find the standing area is actually not much better than the 3+2 stock. What was this service formed with in the past? If it was a 3+2 unit you will have some unhappy punters. Actually you probably will if it was a 365, as they had decent standing room. I am sure the 1823 Cambridge service used to be 365s.

The new evening working was formerly booked for 365s, and IIRC the new morning working was 317s.

I'm away at the moment so don't have access to the diagrams, but I'd suspect that as this doesn't directly replace any 321s, one would *expect* another morning 321 working to be replaced with 317s, and another evening 321 working to be replaced with 365s. This is just speculation though.

 

[jon0844]

The 387s certainly look dated already! Guess there was an issue today, perhaps due to earlier signalling problems?

 

[jamieP]

Good start for tomorrow with the 0706 Peterborough to London Kings Cross already now 321 vice 387.

 

[Skimble19]

Indeed, due to a lack of available drivers who are trained on 387s the units due to go up to Peterborough last night /early this morning haven't gone up, so that diagram will not be 387s for at least the morning - not sure whether it will swap over for the afternoon or not yet though.

It is also only a 4 car unit (317/321) instead of 8 car 387, combined with a couple of the Peterborough 12 cars being reduced to 8 car it may be a bit cramped this morning..

 

[jamieP]

Indeed, due to a lack of available drivers who are trained on 387s the units due to go up to Peterborough last night /early this morning haven't gone up, so that diagram will not be 387s for at least the morning - not sure whether it will swap over for the afternoon or not yet though.

It is also only a 4 car unit (317/321) instead of 8 car 387, combined with a couple of the Peterborough 12 cars being reduced to 8 car it may be a bit cramped this morning..

4 car 365 now, with both 0555 and 0715 12 cars now running as 8 cars.

 

[stut]

Gah! Thanks for the warning. I'll wait by the first class section. At least I'm not cycling today...

 

[D365]

Oh, so train lengths are supposed to be increasing already?

 

[bramling]

Oh, so train lengths are supposed to be increasing already?

Nope. The new 2x387 diagram was formerly 2x317, and the two other diagrams mentioned have been booked 12-car for some time. So, once again, this shambolic change programme has let passengers down this morning.

Meanwhile, I notice Thameslink is a catalogue of delays and cancellations this morning thanks to problems south of the river.

 

[Failed Unit]

Oh, so train lengths are supposed to be increasing already?

We wish they were, the only thing the 387 programme is doing is increasing the number of people standing (and the length they are standing for of course)

Not looking forward to when they take over the following trains.

0627 Cambridge - London,
0657 Cambridge - London,
0727 Cambridge - London,

Hopefully GTR management are noticing how badly the passengers are suffering on the ones already gone over and will put 365s on instead once the 317s go.

 

[bramling]

We wish they were, the only thing the 387 programme is doing is increasing the number of people standing (and the length they are standing for of course)

Not looking forward to when they take over the following trains.

0627 Cambridge - London,
0657 Cambridge - London,
0727 Cambridge - London,

Hopefully GTR management are noticing how badly the passengers are suffering on the ones already gone over and will put 365s on instead once the 317s go.

Unfortunately all three services call at Foxton, Shepreth and Meldreth, requiring SDO, which the 365s don't have.

 

[philjo]

These are currently 317s - I think they lock the rear unit out of use until Royston - can't that be done on the 365s?

07:20 (6x 313) from Letchworth cancelled this morning - train fault - so the 06:57 from Cambridge was rather full after Knebworth. Most of us got off at WGC for the Moorgate train (took a while to get off the train & over the footbridge)
I think the 07:42 Royston - KGX was also 4 coaches this morning. That train is usually full & standing after leaving Letchworth when it is 8 coaches.

 

[Failed Unit]

You are correct, Philjo. The 317s lock out the rear set until Royston. No idea whether this can be done on the 365s. Never known these services formed of anything else.

I should add according to great northerns web forum the 387s don't have sdo either.

 

[bramling]

You are correct, Philjo. The 317s lock out the rear set until Royston. No idea whether this can be done on the 365s. Never known these services formed of anything else.

I should add according to great northerns web forum the 387s don't have sdo either.

The answer is that it can't be done on the 365s - or at least not easily (I would presume it's theoretically possible for someone to walk through the train and isolate each individual door, but there are numerous practical and paperwork reasons why it's not really feasible to do this on a planned basis). The GN 317s have a primitive SDO system fitted which allows the rear unit to be deselected.

 

[Failed Unit]

The answer is that it can't be done on the 365s - or at least not easily (I would presume it's theoretically possible for someone to walk through the train and isolate each individual door, but there are numerous practical and paperwork reasons why it's not really feasible to do this on a planned basis). The GN 317s have a primitive SDO system fitted which allows the rear unit to be deselected.

That is bad news then. Looks like they will be getting downgraded to 387s and we will be stuck with them until the 700s show up. Will also explain why bins or 365s never cover even in service disruptions.

 

[bramling]

That is bad news then. Looks like they will be getting downgraded to 387s and we will be stuck with them until the 700s show up. Will also explain why bins or 365s never cover even in service disruptions.

Technically 365s (or 321s) can cover, but it would either be a single unit, or the service would be amended to non-stop the three stations. Doesn't happen very often, but it has been known.

When the 700s arrive there will still, of course, be a reduction in seats compared to today's 317s if the 8-car versions turn up, which seems likely to be the case long-term. We wait to see if this shortfall will be made up with extra services, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[D365]

That is bad news then. Looks like they will be getting downgraded to 387s and we will be stuck with them until the 700s show up.

I thought that the point in using 387s is so that SDO can be implemented before the Class 700/0s turn up.

Aside from the reduction in number of seats, are there any other complaints?

 

[Failed Unit]

I thought that the point in using 387s is so that SDO can be implemented before the Class 700/0s turn up.

Aside from the reduction in number of seats, are there any other complaints?

Heard some complaints about the hard seats. But overcrowding (on services which previously no-one stood unless they want to) and less standing space are the main ones.

 

[crazystripe]

I'd be grateful if anyone can confirm if the 7.06 ex PBO is going to be a 387 on Tuesday (1 Nov)?

 

[bramling]

I thought that the point in using 387s is so that SDO can be implemented before the Class 700/0s turn up.

Correct, however the three services concerned are already 8 cars long - but formed with class 317s which have considerably more seats. Unless they go to 3x387, which doesn't seem to be on the table, it's a reduction in capacity.

It will also cause a problem replacing 2x317 with 2x387 on the morning Peterborough working, as this particular service is one of the busier up trains formed of 8 cars. We're not talking about leaving people behind, but these services are normally all seats taken (including the middle seats!) with various levels of standing depending on location in the train.

Aside from the reduction in number of seats, are there any other complaints?

Yes - the hard seats. The seating on the earlier variants of Electrostar is much nicer. Also the first class is in a sub-optimal location too. My local paper has two letters about the seating this week - not bad considering they're currently on just one diagram!
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I'd be grateful if anyone can confirm if the 7.06 ex PBO is going to be a 387 on Tuesday (1 Nov)?

Unless something else has gone wrong, there's no reason why not. The evening working (1823 KX to Cambridge) comes in from Hornsey Depot, so that should get the 387s into position without needing any special arrangements.

It's smacks of really sloppy operation that GTR couldn't get their stock balance at Peterborough right for the start of traffic this morning.