Class 387 to GN

[387star]

The first class thing is bizarre. Why the haven't just gone for the areas behind the cab we will never know. It is not as if we are not used to it with the 365s and the 700s will be behind the cabs as well.

I also don't understand why they have so much of it. Other GN users will I am sure step in but it carts around fresh air most of the time. I have always considered the 321s over provisioned. The 365s are ok. We won't talk about the 317s.

First Class is in one place so looks bigger than it is rather than two ends of a 377

also the placing is the same as the gx 387s

I think it is also chosen as there are mostly table seats- only six seats are without tables in the first class section

on gx additional film is placed over the inter connecting door for added privacy

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, a couple of hundred 450s and 350s have been in regular service with first class in the middle of carriages for years without any apparent problems.

Mountains and molehills springs to mind...

I don't think it's that serious either, but it's worthy of discussion. My bigger issue is that it's not clearly marked (yet).

I wonder if the trains will always be with first class at the London end? The 321s always do/did. As long as there's consistency it should be okay, otherwise first class behind each cab is better for anyone looking for it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think it's that serious either, but it's worthy of discussion. My bigger issue is that it's not clearly marked (yet).

I wonder if the trains will always be with first class at the London end? The 321s always do/did. As long as there's consistency it should be okay, otherwise first class behind each cab is better for anyone looking for it.

I did see a bin "the wrong way around". No idea how it happened as you know great northern doesn't have (m)any turning areas.

I think the 317s are all over the place when the intermingled with west anglia and have never got turned.

It isn't a big deal, but at the moment people who want standard stand in certain places on the platform to avoid first. This is a problem on great northern because all the units operating have a different formation. It often increases dwell times as some diagrams can get 317, 365 or 321s. (I guess as that service is now a 387 passengers will get used to it).

 

[Skimble19]

Ideally First would be at the other end of the carriage, where it is now makes very little sense. If it was at the other end that entire section would be first, separated by the door into standard and could be stickered up to leave very little doubt about it. How it is now will inevitably cause confusion, especially with it being essentially identical...

 

[inthearea]

Anybody know if they'll be running 110mph tomorrow, or are they limited due to the pantographs?

Current max run speed for GN is 100mph

 

[Class377/5]

Worth noting the FC area is where Bombardier intended it to be. Reason for this is the FC passengers don't hear all the noises from the cab so have a more peaceful jounery.

 

[physics34]

Worth noting the FC area is where Bombardier intended it to be. Reason for this is the FC passengers don't hear all the noises from the cab so have a more peaceful jounery.

...something that is never thought of South of the river.

 

[bramling]

I did see a bin "the wrong way around". No idea how it happened as you know great northern doesn't have (m)any turning areas.

I think the 317s are all over the place when the intermingled with west anglia and have never got turned.

It isn't a big deal, but at the moment people who want standard stand in certain places on the platform to avoid first. This is a problem on great northern because all the units operating have a different formation. It often increases dwell times as some diagrams can get 317, 365 or 321s. (I guess as that service is now a 387 passengers will get used to it).

There's nowhere on the GN network where a train can become turned. The only time the current trains get turned is when they go off to/from works.

The 317s used to get turned when they worked on the WA side, for example the triangle at Stansted, or around Stratford.

Returning to the 387s, this positioning of FC I think is a slightly bigger deal, as it's introducing a complete doorway in the middle of the train which is basically unavailable for standard class passengers. The 317s and 365s don't have this, as if you happen to board adjacent to first class there's always one direction you can turn giving immediate access to standard class seating. It causes issues on the 321s, but at least it's at one end of the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Worth noting the FC area is where Bombardier intended it to be. Reason for this is the FC passengers don't hear all the noises from the cab so have a more peaceful jounery.

Great. So instead of a chime which happens only once or twice a minute, and the occasional vigilance tone, all of which only happens if that cab happens to be the end the train is being driven from, you now get people walking through (accompanied by the sound of automatic doors opening/closing) on an almost constant basis in the time leading up to the service's departure from origin, probably hearing the words "keep walking, this is first class" repeated pretty regularly, up until after the journey has commenced, then the same repeated at every station stop, or if someone is going to the toilet. Then at the end of the journey a procession of people walking through in order to be at the leading set of doors upon arrival at the terminus. That peaceful journey you describe is a misnomer anyway due to the amount of noise generated by the PIS at various times.

If Bombardier really wanted to give first class users a "peaceful" journey, how about finding a section of the train which is not above a bogie, and a motored one at that?

It won't do loadings any good either as the section of standard class immediately adjacent to the cab will be missed by anyone walking through from the other end of the train, many of whom will assume the whole carriage is first class.

What planet are these decision-makers on?

Sorry, but the class 365 arrangement is much better, and this is what should have been carried on with the 387s.

 

[RobShipway]

There's nowhere on the GN network where a train can become turned. The only time the current trains get turned is when they go off to/from works.

The 317s used to get turned when they worked on the WA side, for example the triangle at Stansted, or around Stratford.

Returning to the 387s, this positioning of FC I think is a slightly bigger deal, as it's introducing a complete doorway in the middle of the train which is basically unavailable for standard class passengers. The 317s and 365s don't have this, as if you happen to board adjacent to first class there's always one direction you can turn giving immediate access to standard class seating. It causes issues on the 321s, but at least it's at one end of the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Great. So instead of a chime which happens only once or twice a minute, and the occasional vigilance tone, all of which only happens if that cab happens to be the end the train is being driven from, you now get people walking through (accompanied by the sound of automatic doors opening/closing) on an almost constant basis in the time leading up to the service's departure from origin, probably hearing the words "keep walking, this is first class" repeated pretty regularly, up until after the journey has commenced, then the same repeated at every station stop, or if someone is going to the toilet. Then at the end of the journey a procession of people walking through in order to be at the leading set of doors upon arrival at the terminus. That peaceful journey you describe is a misnomer anyway due to the amount of noise generated by the PIS at various times.

It won't do loadings any good either as the section of standard class immediately adjacent to the cab will be missed by anyone walking through from the other end of the train, many of whom will assume the whole carriage is first class.

What planet are these decision-makers on?

Sorry, but the class 365 arrangement is much better, and this is what should have been carried on with the 387s.

It is one of those situations when you are not going to please everyone as to where the first class seats are placed in the train.

 

[jon0844]

It is one of those situations when you are not going to please everyone as to where the first class seats are placed in the train.

Why couldn't it at least be consistent with the 700s? Or does GTR think the noise is acceptable there? I mean, I've so often been annoyed by the sound from the cab.

Of course I've heard the noises, and even drivers laughing and talking when someone else is in the cab (like a 321) but it's never bothered me. Ever. Nor my wife who is very much someone who just travels on a train and doesn't notice or care about anything but having some comfort and being on time.

When the whistle is being blown at King's Cross, the last minute runners will all jump on the first set of doors and some will get stuck as people block the aisles (knowing they can't go into first class), while others will push through. It will be fun.

Sure it will settle down until the train is coming back into King's Cross, but it just seems odd. Not a massive deal because a) I don't travel much on the services where first is declassified at the moment, and would never pay for first class anyway b) they're temporary for me anyway, so eventually it will be 700s or 365s. So it will be 'back to normal'.

 

[bramling]

Why couldn't it at least be consistent with the 700s? Or does GTR think the noise is acceptable there? I mean, I've so often been annoyed by the sound from the cab.

Of course I've heard the noises, and even drivers laughing and talking when someone else is in the cab (like a 321) but it's never bothered me. Ever. Nor my wife who is very much someone who just travels on a train and doesn't notice or care about anything but having some comfort and being on time.

When the whistle is being blown at King's Cross, the last minute runners will all jump on the first set of doors and some will get stuck as people block the aisles (knowing they can't go into first class), while others will push through. It will be fun.

Sure it will settle down until the train is coming back into King's Cross, but it just seems odd. Not a massive deal because a) I don't travel much on the services where first is declassified at the moment, and would never pay for first class anyway b) they're temporary for me anyway, so eventually it will be 700s or 365s. So it will be 'back to normal'.

It's not a *massive* deal, but it seems like (yet another) questionable move by this TOC.

On a different note, wait for the complaints to come pouring in when commuters from places like Hitchin and Royston find first class is, cough, remarkably similar to standard class.

Bets are open on how long this position lasts though, I just can't see it working well in practice.

 

[RobShipway]

Why couldn't it at least be consistent with the 700s? Or does GTR think the noise is acceptable there? I mean, I've so often been annoyed by the sound from the cab.

Of course I've heard the noises, and even drivers laughing and talking when someone else is in the cab (like a 321) but it's never bothered me. Ever. Nor my wife who is very much someone who just travels on a train and doesn't notice or care about anything but having some comfort and being on time.

When the whistle is being blown at King's Cross, the last minute runners will all jump on the first set of doors and some will get stuck as people block the aisles (knowing they can't go into first class), while others will push through. It will be fun.

Sure it will settle down until the train is coming back into King's Cross, but it just seems odd. Not a massive deal because a) I don't travel much on the services where first is declassified at the moment, and would never pay for first class anyway b) they're temporary for me anyway, so eventually it will be 700s or 365s. So it will be 'back to normal'.

Well, being someone that has travelled on class 450's where the first class is roughly in the same place, I have found it quieter were it is located than with the first class being at the end/beginning of a carriage as on the class 166 trains where you have the noise of the driver or guard/conductor making noises or talking on the intercom to each other. Whereas on the class 450, the guard/conductor is within their own soundproof office.

As I think has been mentioned earlier in the thread, it does seem to be the location for first that TOCs/train manufacturers believe is the quietest place for first class seats to reside.

 

[jon0844]

Another thing. Look at the train from the outside. Yes, there's the yellow line above the windows but NOTHING on the doors themselves. Nothing next to the doors either. And how many people know what the yellow lines mean outside of places like this? Does it mention this in timetables? On station posters?



Pray tell, how does Joe Public know that the second set of doors at the London end is first class before they board and find out? What if it's busy and they're boarding further up the line, and there just happens to be a revenue check going on?

What has GTR got against marking out first class properly? With clear signs, NOT the small poster style signs that have loads of small print. What is wrong with nice large '1' stickers or 'First Class' written on the windows, where people will look when travelling? Heck, what's wrong with the screens in first class mentioning that it is (or isn't) first class like the 700s can? You could even have an audible announcement if first class is sectioned off and the designers set things up properly.

 

[bramling]

Well, being someone that has travelled on class 450's where the first class is roughly in the same place, I have found it quieter were it is located than with the first class being at the end/beginning of a carriage as on the class 166 trains where you have the noise of the driver or guard/conductor making noises or talking on the intercom to each other. Whereas on the class 450, the guard/conductor is within their own soundproof office.

Won't be needing to worry about the guard being a nuisance, GN is fully DOO.

As I think has been mentioned earlier in the thread, it does seem to be the location for first that TOCs/train manufacturers believe is the quietest place for first class seats to reside.

Above a motor bogie. Really?

(To be fair, this would also be true if located adjacent to the cab, as on the 365, but at least it reduces the nuisance of people walking through).

 

[RobShipway]

Won't be needing to worry about the guard being a nuisance, GN is fully DOO.



Above a motor bogie. Really?

(To be fair, this would also be true if located adjacent to the cab, as on the 365, but at least it reduces the nuisance of people walking through).

If the carriages where longer than 20.4M, then the first class would not be over a motor bogie. Besides, name me a train where the first class is not over a motor bogie within a carriage as even the HST/Pendolino trains have first class over a motor bogie!!

 

[Hadders]

Why couldn't it at least be consistent with the 700s? Or does GTR think the noise is acceptable there? I mean, I've so often been annoyed by the sound from the cab.

Of course I've heard the noises, and even drivers laughing and talking when someone else is in the cab (like a 321) but it's never bothered me. Ever. Nor my wife who is very much someone who just travels on a train and doesn't notice or care about anything but having some comfort and being on time.

When the whistle is being blown at King's Cross, the last minute runners will all jump on the first set of doors and some will get stuck as people block the aisles (knowing they can't go into first class), while others will push through. It will be fun.

Sure it will settle down until the train is coming back into King's Cross, but it just seems odd. Not a massive deal because a) I don't travel much on the services where first is declassified at the moment, and would never pay for first class anyway b) they're temporary for me anyway, so eventually it will be 700s or 365s. So it will be 'back to normal'.

Completely agree with this. Surely it's better to put 1st class compartments at either end of the train like the 365s or 700s. Plus if an 8 or 12 car train is running many of the first class sections will be 'back to back'.

Doesn't the Queen travel by train from Kings Cross to King Lynn? I wonder what she'll make of the riff-raff walking through 1st class? At least this can't happen on the 365s.

 

[bramling]

If the carriages where longer than 20.4M, then the first class would not be over a motor bogie. Besides, name me a train where the first class is not over a motor bogie within a carriage as even the HST/Pendolino trains have first class over a motor bogie!!

317s don't, for a start.

I'm not saying it's a massive issue, because it isn't really. But I'm taking issue with the suggestion that someone wanted to give first-class passengers a peaceful ride, because if you did then you wouldn't put it where they've done. (Unless that someone doesn't know what they're doing - hmm).

 

[Failed Unit]

317s don't, for a start.

I'm not saying it's a massive issue, because it isn't really. But I'm taking issue with the suggestion that someone wanted to give first-class passengers a peaceful ride, because if you did then you wouldn't put it where they've done. (Unless that someone doesn't know what they're doing - hmm).

Do 317s have first class. Oh the IC70 seating is first class. Which half the train needs to walk through to get to the toilet. Ok the 387s are luxury. Lol.

 

[bramling]

Do 317s have first class. Oh the IC70 seating is first class. Which half the train needs to walk through to get to the toilet. Ok the 387s are luxury. Lol.

At least the 317s offer something which attempts to be (*) more comfortable seating - and isn't 2+3.

(*chosen my wording carefully there!).

In BR days the first on the 317s was quite pleasant, with carpets, curtains and dividing doors. It's gone downhill over time.

The first on the refurbished 317/6s was rather nice, and well located (hint to GTR!).

 

[jon0844]

Next year GTR will try first class on one side of the train, and if that doesn't work then it will trial making every third row of seats first class.

 

[bramling]

Next year GTR will try first class on one side of the train, and if that doesn't work then it will trial making every third row of seats first class.

That's if the train turns up at all.

GTR is already a five-days-a-week-only railway on the GN side.

Seriously, why does this TOC make a mess of everything it touches?

 

[physics34]

That's if the train turns up at all.

GTR is already a five-days-a-week-only railway on the GN side.

Seriously, why does this TOC make a mess of everything it touches?

There is no passion for the franchise... not much care for the passengers...not enough staff and cost cutting everywhere. Things we've mentioned are so low down the priorities list.

 

[D365]

Besides, name me a train where the first class is not over a motor bogie within a carriage as even the HST/Pendolino trains have first class over a motor bogie!!

Err, off the top of my head, there's the Classes 317, 319, 321/322...

And the Mk3 HST coaches are not motored at all.

 

[RobShipway]

Err, off the top of my head, there's the Classes 317, 319, 321/322...

And the Mk3 HST coaches are not motored at all.

Some of the First class is still above a bogie in Mk3 HST coaches, which I know for some people have caused them issues with being able to be comfortable in sitting in first class.

I would like to add that I have not had the above issue though.

 

[Failed Unit]

For info. 387110 on 0705 kings cross - Cambridge this morning. Guess same diagram as yesterday.

 

[Class377/5]

...something that is never thought of South of the river.

What are you on about? The 3872 fleet has this.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just back on the bad decision on first class positioning, it gets worse. Just passed a unit coming out of Hornsey. (Didn't get number) because the train was turned it is a the back. At least behind the cabs people always know where it is.

 

[jon0844]

For info. 387110 on 0705 kings cross - Cambridge this morning. Guess same diagram as yesterday.

Three weeks I believe.

 

[D365]

Some of the First class is still above a bogie in Mk3 HST coaches, which I know for some people have caused them issues with being able to be comfortable in sitting in first class.

My point is you're getting motored and trailered bogies mixed up, though personally I find the ride on a Mk3 far better than that on a Mk4.

 

[RobShipway]

My point is you're getting motored and trailered bogies mixed up, though personally I find the ride on a Mk3 far better than that on a Mk4.

I probably am getting motored and trailered bogies mixed up, but my point that i was trying to make is that you can still get movement and noise from them even on a Mk3 coach that depending on the state of the track can cause discomfort for some people when travelling in first class.