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Class 387 to GN

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physics34

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..but of course Southern will have a net increase of 377s through the back door, when 700s take over Horshams, London Bridge to Brightons and peak time East Grinstead/Littlehampton services.

8 car 377/2 and /5s on Milton Keynes services will release the /7s for more metro 10 cars.
 
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Failed Unit

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I suspect users wouldnt miss the middle seat if there was more space to stand. The 387s have no more room between the seats than the trains they replace. (But with less seats) The 700s are a long way off yet on great northern.

I do get the DDA rules. But they don't come in until 2020. Long after the 700s take over the route that is struggling at the moment. That will be a big improvement as it will mean the end of 4 car working.

It is the interim I am very unhappy about. Replacing 387s like for like with 321/317s is wrong. Replacing 387s on 365 operated services and then cascade the 365 onto the 321/317 services is better as people have more room to stand.

As I have said before the 1653 used to be anything spare at Hornsey. If it was a 365 people stood comfortably- this isn't the case now it is a 387 so at least use the 365 on the service! Put the 387 on a less loaded service.
 

swt_passenger

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32x 377 go to 'Southern' who release 32x 377 to Southeastern so Southern have zero gain but Southeastern has 7x more than the original 25x 377 announced.

Yes, I know that, having made the logical assumptions. What the point of my post was is that you didn't actually write that in your post #583, you wrote:
Now the 32x 377 to Southern are replaced with the 32x 377 going to Southern
...as is often the case you had presumably hit send before checking your reply fully.

Then, I never said that the total number of 377s with SN was an overall increase, I only said in post #577 that as Southern would receive a greater number of 377s from Thameslink than originally planned, that would be better for working in multiple with other 377s.

There was no need for you to mention the units going to Southeastern at all, in the context of my posts. You have replied to something different that isn't in my posts at all.
 

bramling

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Its the interim period where stock is currently not in its final set up.

Not an acceptable excuse. Now the 387s are coming over there is plenty of stock to allow formations to be lengthened, even if only temporarily.


Wait until the upgrade is finished before writing it off.

That doesn't help people now, does it? Reality is at present we have a number of busy services which have seen a reduction in capacity - both seating and standing. The 2x387 working up from Peterborough in the AM peak was one of the worst diagrams to put them on, being one of the busiest 8-car services there is.

The Thameslink Dream World may see this as somehow acceptable, but I bet people trying to use the services in question don't. In fact, GTR's Twitter feed tells us all we need to know about how this has been received.

Yet every single time its discussed with commuters they want rid of it. There is research to back this view up. So what should you go with? Actually evidence or comments on a forum? Think you know the answer.

I don't doubt people want rid of it, but I bet that's on the basis that they still get a seat on a 2+2 train. If the question "do you want 2+2 seating if it means *you* will now have to stand?" was asked, I'm not so sure the answer would be so clear-cut. Reality is people do use the middle seats in preference to standing. If GTR had provided longer formations to compensate then I'm sure people would have been happy (although it doesn't resolve the complaints about the hard uncomfortable seats), but this hasn't happened.

It's all very well bleating on about the future, but people have to get to work *today*.
 
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D365

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It's all very well bleating on about the future, but people have to get to work *today*.

what do you suggest, delaying the introduction of the 387s until the next timetable change? Which isn't possible as they need to be moved to Hornsey and bedded in on the Great Northern in time for the Class 317/321 fleet to be cascaded.

There's always going to have to be a compromise somewhere.
 

Failed Unit

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what do you suggest, delaying the introduction of the 387s until the next timetable change? Which isn't possible as they need to be moved to Hornsey and bedded in on the Great Northern in time for the Class 317/321 fleet to be cascaded.

There's always going to have to be a compromise somewhere.

Look at the passenger counts and daigram them on the less busy services? Conta peak flows? Lengthen 4 coach services and use SDO? Before anyone says SDO extends dwell times, i am sure SDO doesn't extend dwell times as much as Foxton as passengers attempting to board a seriously overcrowded train at Finsbury Park.

I suspect 317 / 321 are deliberately diagrammed on the busiest services. Swapping them directly with low capacity trains was never going to work. They haven't got the option regional railways used when the 153 was introduced. Price people off / make the timetable less desirable.
 
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notverydeep

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Wait until the upgrade is finished before writing it off.

The Thameslink Upgrade is clearly going to deliver serious benefits to some large groups of passengers across the South East, but the timetable consultation makes it clear that there are also a number of significant passenger groups who gain nothing at best or at worse lose out. Welwyn Garden City passengers are in this category, with no increase in peak frequency, slower journeys with more stops and much reduced seating capacity even in the long term.

The best hope is that the increase in the number of 12 car trains elsewhere means that some passengers from those areas will no longer be on the trains that call at Welwyn Garden City, but it is clear that we face at least two years with the existing timetable, as far as we can tell the existing train lengths for the most part and many fewer seats. Even if some Jam is coming our way in the very long term - and it isn't obvious that it is, GTR cannot expect the affected passengers to be other than pretty annoyed.

Yet every single time its discussed with commuters they want rid of it. There is research to back this view up. So what should you go with? Actually evidence or comments on a forum? Think you know the answer.

This research definitely does not say that passengers have expressed a preference to stand instead of taking middle seats. The research actually suggests a hierarchy of preferences for the average passenger. The hierarchy reflects my (and I suspect most passengers with similar commutes) preferences well. My first preference is to sit in a double seat with the other unoccupied; my second preference is a seat in a 2 + 2 bay (where the other is occupied); my third preference is the middle seat, but all there are far more preferable to me and I would expect most of the respondents in the research to standing, particularly if the standing is in very crowded conditions. Yes, there are some who do chose to stand rather than sit in the middle seat where the duration of the standing is fairly short, but on peak journeys today to and from Welwyn Garden City, the revealed preference is that people do use these middle seats and they are almost always taken.
 
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Failed Unit

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As a fellow WGC users. I don't expect a seat. If I wanted one i would use a Moorgate service. If the 387s increased the crush loading. (Seated passengers + standing passengers) I would be happy. They don't. Potters Bar passengers now often can't physically get on board. Is this acceptable? It seems GTR and many of thier defenders seem to think so. They also seem to think knowingly making it worse for the next 2 years is acceptable.
 
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hwl

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This research definitely does not say that passengers have expressed a preference to stand instead of taking middle seats. The research actually suggests a hierarchy of preferences for the average passenger. The hierarchy reflects my (and I suspect most passengers with similar commutes) preferences well. My first preference is to sit in a double seat with the other unoccupied; my second preference is a seat in a 2 + 2 bay (where the other is occupied); my third preference is the middle seat, but all there are far more preferable to me and I would expect most of the respondents in the research to standing, particularly if the standing is in very crowded conditions.

And then appropriately weight the preferences of needing to being able to get on the train or not and comfort while standing and minimised journey times through minimising increases in dwell time with an increase in passenger numbers, which is where the marginal increases in train capacity come from, if there are capacity issues and people can't get on the train the preferences of those on it go out the window, that how things work these days.




One thing I don't understand is how 387 has less standing capacity than BR units with 3+2 seating as this wasn't the case on Thameslink or is it just a case of rose tinted GN spectacles?
 

jon0844

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One thing I don't understand is how 387 has less standing capacity than BR units with 3+2 seating as this wasn't the case on Thameslink or is it just a case of rose tinted GN spectacles?

I don't know the measurements of the interior, or the seats, or the width of the arm rests, but clearly the aisle is about as narrow as a 3+2 train, which sort of defeats the object.

We see elsewhere people complaining about the seats being over too far on the 700s but the result is an aisle where people can push buggies along it - and two people can pass each other with ease.

That sort of openness not only allows the train to swallow up people at peak times, but the open gangways and space also encourages people to move up and down - so there's hopefully more chance of the aisles being used. Mind you, the large vestibules cope better when people don't.

The 387s are very nice trains, but the configuration is better suited for longer distance travel with less stops and presumably 8 or 12 cars long to reduce heavy loadings.
 

Failed Unit

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hwl said:
One thing I don't understand is how 387 has less standing capacity than BR units with 3+2 seating as this wasn't the case on Thameslink or is it just a case of rose tinted GN spectacles?

Then i suggest you travel on one. The 2+2 seating has armrests. Therefore the space between the seats isn't much better than what we have now, but more people are standing. If space is constrained then people are not prepared to move down the coach.

When they were introduced on Thameslink they increase capacity by increasing formation lengths. This isn't happening on great northern services stopping south of Stevenage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agree Jon. They are perfect for long distance not commuting services.
 

hwl

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Then i suggest you travel on one. The 2+2 seating has armrests. Therefore the space between the seats isn't much better than what we have now, but more people are standing. If space is constrained then people are not prepared to move down the coach.

I have - hundreds of times.
You have confirmed what I suspected: that the passengers haven't adapted their behaviour to improve standing densities yet. The same happened with identical interiors on 377/6 &/7s on Southern and 387/1 on Thameslink, but passengers gradually adapted the way they positioned themselves* and were more willing to move down . Might I suggest GN passengers learn from those on the rest of the TSGN network? If there are fewer than 100 per car standing they really aren't are trying hard enough before complaining.

*especially as you can get 3 hands on the back of the seat back grabs
 
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notverydeep

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And then appropriately weight the preferences of needing to being able to get on the train or not and comfort while standing and minimised journey times through minimising increases in dwell time with an increase in passenger numbers, which is where the marginal increases in train capacity come from, if there are capacity issues and people can't get on the train the preferences of those on it go out the window, that how things work these days.




One thing I don't understand is how 387 has less standing capacity than BR units with 3+2 seating as this wasn't the case on Thameslink or is it just a case of rose tinted GN spectacles?

People can board all the peak trains to and from Welwyn Garden City. They are well sized for the task (pairs of 317s mostly), with seats for most passengers - 584 seats plus say 50 - 60 standees on departure from Welwyn Garden City southbound AM and slightly fewer from Finsbury Park northbound PM. Dwells work within the time allowed and observed load. This means that there are no passengers who cannot board (left behind) whose needs have to be weighted in the calculation. This does occur when trains are short formed, but this is thankfully still rare. I understand that such a trade off would be needed if that were happening. Other passengers on other lines (no, not GTR lines) end up with the trade offs I plan!

387s have 447 seats per pair. On Thameslink these units allowed additional services and more 12 car trains, which were an improvement on 2 x 377 or 2 x 319, both in capacity and dwell time. This mitigated their lower seating capacity. On GN they are not introducing additional services or apparently lengthening the formations of many trains until 2018. 1C96 (King's Cross to Welwyn North) demonstrates the effect. It has gone from full pairs of 365s with a few standees to full and crowded 387s. Hence the complaints repeated across their workings thus far.

700s are better configured for standing and short dwells, and will work better than 387s as they have only slightly less seating capacity. I understand that Thameslink's core will not work at 24 tph without this compromise of seating and standing space, but GTRs passengers assume it will come with more frequency and / or train length for them. According to the consultation document Welwyn Garden City stands to get neither!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That is a GTR management style response. We have made things worse, but it is yours the passengers fault.

Indeed. I sometimes think many of my industry colleagues struggle to understand the motivation of complaints about these issues and struggle to recognise that there are real people behind the trade offs they make.

The nature of any commute is a huge factor in determining people's quality of life and the life choices. If you change two 30 minute journeys in a seat (plus access and egress time of course) without much warning to 30 minutes standing on a crowded train, the affected passengers individual cost of that journey has increased enormously ('generalised cost' or 'weighted cost' are the terms planners would use). It is enough that some will find the new situation intolerable to the extent that they feel compelled to move house, change jobs, move their children from school, retire early etc.

It may well be that growing demand will replace such people with others more tolerant of the conditions and benefits elsewhere offset this in the 'business case', but beware. Too many experiencing significant downsides motivate politicians to intervene and change the best laid plans, resulting in seriously suboptimal use of expensive infrastructure - e.g. Wimbledon loop bay platforms at Blackfriars?
 

Failed Unit

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It does seem odd to cut capacity when they want people using the railway to grow. Even more odd as you have said no plans for peak time growth south of Stevenage even after thameslink.

I know we all have choices. For Welwyn Garden city they are as follows in the peak (southbound)

Take the x25 or x55 non stop Finsbury Park services. Take about 25 minutes to kings crossand stand comfortably. (While they are 317s). But still people stand.

Take x12 or x40 semifast. get a seat. These can be various units types including 313s.

Take one of the Moorgate services and tube from Highbury and Islington.

When the 387s take over the fast services I am likely to move to the semi fasts. Speed is my priority but avoiding sardine runs is higher on my priorities. GTR will be hoping the overcrowding forces people off the faster services.

But it is concerning that capacity in the future is going to be cut. I hope passengers further up the line really do go for the 12 car services, as whether GTR like it or not the railway is growing they can't fight this no matter how much us passengers are an inconvenience to them. (I can see why their employees dislike them so much, when they treat everyone with such contempt)
 

bramling

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One thing I don't understand is how 387 has less standing capacity than BR units with 3+2 seating as this wasn't the case on Thameslink or is it just a case of rose tinted GN spectacles?

The seating is 2+2, however the gangway is about the same as a 317/321. As an aside it's also more awkward to walk through as the armrests are perfect for getting clothing caught on.

One vestibule per unit is also wasted by being designated first-class.

Can't stress enough how the 365 is simply so much better - comfortable 2+2 seating combined with good standing space, and a pleasant comfortable ambience for all. The 387s and 700 simply don't match this, for various reasons.
 
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Skimble19

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More 387s will be introduced from Monday, will post diagrams later if somebody else doesn't beat me to it! :lol:
 

physics34

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Still no news on the destination of the spare 365s aswell as the 317s, 319s and 321s?
 

Class315

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387 out on a weekend diagrams.

Started as 2P00 0522 KGX PBO
2P33 0716 PBO KGX
2C08 0905 KGX CBG

Unit out is 117.

Correction

2P21 0416 PBO KGX
2C02 0605 KGX CBG
2C35 0755 CBG KGX
2P08 0935 KGX PBO

Unit is 114
 
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159220

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Who ever started the rumour that the Brecknell Willis M00042-65-L 110 mph capable pantograph was being replaced, has been providing incorrect information.

The 387s are indeed in service with their original pantographs, please see attached from Kings Cross.

IMG_4205.JPG
 

jamieP

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387 out on a weekend diagrams.

Started as 2P00 0522 KGX PBO
2P33 0716 PBO KGX
2C08 0905 KGX CBG

Unit out is 117.

Correction

2P21 0416 PBO KGX
2C02 0605 KGX CBG
2C35 0755 CBG KGX
2P08 0935 KGX PBO

Unit is 114

117 worked 0325 PBO-KGX ex Nene

JP
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought all the 317s and half the 321s were going to greater anglia.

Think 6 321s have been stopped now waiting transfer to GA but cant remember which ones

JP
 

D365

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Think 6 321s have been stopped now waiting transfer to GA but cant remember which ones

Any chance that they're going for refurbishment first? Or are they going to cover GA's own units?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Look at the passenger counts and daigram them on the less busy services? Conta peak flows? Lengthen 4 coach services and use SDO? Before anyone says SDO extends dwell times, i am sure SDO doesn't extend dwell times as much as Foxton as passengers attempting to board a seriously overcrowded train at Finsbury Park.

There's not really much that can be done until the timetable change.
 

bramling

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There's not really much that can be done until the timetable change.

Given that the situation was entirely foreseeable, that's no excuse. The timetable should have been planned around their introduction, not just stick them on the existing timetable and hope for the best.
 

D365

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Given that the situation was entirely foreseeable, that's no excuse. The timetable should have been planned around their introduction, not just stick them on the existing timetable and hope for the best.

Well the timetable was last changed in May, how many weeks has it been since the Class 387/1s were introduced? I don't thing that running the Class 317/321s on compromised diagrams for five months just so that the 387s have a perfect timetable to be introduced to was a possibility.

Like many things, it's short-term pain for long-term gain. And also a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
 

Failed Unit

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I guess you can look at this as the railway equivalent of building an extra lane on a motorway. Short term pain for long gain. Some places get extra traffic during the work but no real benefit any time afterwards. Such as Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar.

Off peak they will also see a massive improvement. The peak not so much.

Need to start a class 717 thread as I suspect they will be a massive improvement on 313s for crush loading.

Could someone confirm my understanding on the 387s.

From May they will be move to the Kings Lynn services so we will get better units in the form of 365s?
However from may the SDO services in the morning peak must be 387s - as 365s can SDO

Be interesting how the 387s got on this morning. I have got left behind many times at WGC at weekends. However no idea how many services were cancelled before I got on.

Don't really agree not much can be done before the timetable change someone choose to use them on 1653 London to Cambridge but not the 1605 or 1635 services which in terms of load % were not as busy. Some diagrams previously 321 are now 317s so changes can be made mid timetable.
 
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bramling

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Off peak they will also see a massive improvement.

Will the off-peak result be such an improvement? In terms of frequency it will be 2ph, same as today. The trains will ultimately be Reduced Length class 700s, so a reduction in seating availability compared to an 8-car 317/321/365, which is what these services should have had ages ago. At off-peak times, where we'd hope for no standing, the extra standing capacity of a class 700 serves little purpose.

Could someone confirm my understanding on the 387s.
From May they will be move to the Kings Lynn services so we will get better units in the form of 365s?

Yes I believe this is the plan. The 317s and 321s will be gone by then. The 365s won't last though, as it won't be long before the 700s appear (unfortunately).

However from may the SDO services in the morning peak must be 387s - as 365s can SDO

Unless anything else changes, yes these services will have to be 2x387.

Don't really agree not much can be done before the timetable change someone choose to use them on 1653 London to Cambridge but not the 1605 or 1635 services which in terms of load % were not as busy. Some diagrams previously 321 are now 317s so changes can be made mid timetable.

Agreed - it's just bad planning to put them on the busiest services without any other mitigation.
 
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Failed Unit

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Will the off-peak result be such an improvement? In terms of frequency it will be 2ph, same as today. The trains will ultimately be Reduced Length class 700s, so a reduction in seating availability compared to an 8-car 317/321/365, which is what these services should have had ages ago. At off-peak times, where we'd hope for no standing, the extra standing capacity of a class 700 serves little purpose.


.

The majority of services off peak now are only 4 car, so at least they will be all 8 when the 700s hit.

Mix bag on the moorgates. 4 tph is good unless you live at Welham Green and Brookmans Park where you get reduced to 2.

Peak I haven't worked out. Take WGC.
Now
706 semi - London Kx. 2x 321. Replaced by 1x 700 less seats.
727 fast - London Kx. 2x317. Replaced by 1x 700 less seats.
742 semi - London Kx 2x313 replaced by 1x 700 more seats.
755 very fast - London Kx 2x 317. Replaced by 1x 700 less seats more stops.

Not much to look forward to unless the new timetable will mean more people use the 12 car services from stations like Stevenage, hitchin and Letchworth. But they are not now so what will make them move.
 

bramling

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Well the timetable was last changed in May, how many weeks has it been since the Class 387/1s were introduced? I don't thing that running the Class 317/321s on compromised diagrams for five months just so that the 387s have a perfect timetable to be introduced to was a possibility.

How about not releasing any 317s/321s until sufficient 387s were available to maintain capacity? All within the control of the industry.

Like many things, it's short-term pain for long-term gain. And also a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

"damned if you're a Great Northern customer", more like.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The majority of services off peak now are only 4 car, so at least they will be all 8 when the 700s hit.

I was more thinking about what the future could have looked like, were enough stock available, and were it not for the decision not to lengthen platforms at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton.
 

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On a pretty busy train to KGX today (365) and I had a thought - why can't GN declassify these 4 car semi-fast trains from Cambridge on weekends (definitely Sunday but probably Saturday too) as that would give a small boost.

I suspect people are upgrading themselves anyway, and it seems GN is currently doing less on train checks and having more checks at gates (including late night checks - possibly even to the last train).

On that basis, it would seem that sooner or later first class is never going to exist anyway.

Once we get the 700s or 8 car trains, bring it back.
 
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