Class 387 allocations

[samuelmorris]

I had a quick search for this, but couldn't find anything specific (Not helped by the fact that '387' seems too short a search term for the board!)

I was flicking through the wiki article on the 387 and noticed it refers to them only as being used for EMT services from St Pancras to Corby. At the 2tph frequency described, I can only see that needing 12-14 units at most if they all double up as 8-car sets, so what about the rest?

I concede that the timing/diagramming of 387s is still very much up in the air but I didn't realise they'd been allocated to this route as well as the other proposals.

Can anyone shed light on what the most likely location would be for the first few units, or is it too early to say? I'm also interested in the follow-on option which is larger than the initial order itself. The figures of 29 and 35 are specific enough not to have been plucked from nowhere, so someone must have envisaged where these units are going when they came up with them...

 

[Domh245]

I think they are going to TSGN first to help cascade the 319s away, the 377s moving to other routes (eg Wimbledon loop) after that, they could go anywhere. TPE anyone?

 

[samogers]

What about FGW suburban services?
(When the GWML is electrified of course!)

 

[Manchester77]

There's a number of places that the 387s have been said to be put on (based on what's posted on here) and they are:
EMT Corby services
GW Thames Valley services
TPE services

 

[RobShipway]

The wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_387 does suggest that the initial order will go to the East Midlands rout to Corby, once electrification North of Bedford is complete after having moved from TSGN when the Class 700's appear.

Now here is a question, could some of the current FCC class 377's when the 387's and eventually the Class 700's appear be transferred over to the Thames Valley routes?

 

[Domh245]

I'd have thought that when the 700s are running, the displaced 377s could be used for internal cascades, to get rid of the 313s on coastway services. There are approx 25 FCC electrostars and about 20 southern 313s. Those numbers just about work out, although weren't southern supposed to be providing some 377s to southeastern? It might still work out because of the extra carriage in the 377s compared to the 313s

 

[TEW]

I believe 25 377s are earmarked for transfer to Southeastern. Some of the Thameslink 377s will be used for capacity increases on the West London Line too.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had a quick search for this, but couldn't find anything specific (Not helped by the fact that '387' seems too short a search term for the board!)

The main thread about 387s is 'Class 387', last posted to in March:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92831

There was also one specifically asking why they needed to be dual voltage, last posted to in April:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90519

When you ask about the 'location for the first few units' presumably you mean once they are transferred from TSGN in a few years time. In the case of Corby, NR are clearly proposing the use of 12 car units, but in the last plan still used the term '377's. (I think this may be a typo, or relate to when the 387s were unofficially believed to be going to be a 377/8):

The following rolling stock is being assumed;
– Class 377 up to 12 cars, multiple pantographs (London to Corby);

Anyway, nearly all of your questions have already been discussed in the two linked threads...

 

[Fincra5]

I believe 25 377s are earmarked for transfer to Southeastern. Some of the Thameslink 377s will be used for capacity increases on the West London Line too.

I've heard that was to be the 377/1s (older ones) but might just end up being the 377s currently leased to FCC when they get displaced.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've heard that was to be the 377/1s (older ones) but might just end up being the 377s currently leased to FCC when they get displaced.

Your second suggestion is illogical, because it is the combined TSGN that will still need the dual voltage 377/2s and 377/5s for their planned 2 tph 8 car service on the WLL to Milton Keynes, whereas Southeastern have no need for dual voltage 377s. (As far as known plans are concerned anyway...)

 

[Fincra5]

Ah yes I forgot about the WLL. I thought there was sufficient 377/7 units to release enough 4 car units of 377/2 to make 8 cars..

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah yes I forgot about the WLL. I thought there was sufficient 377/7 units to release enough 4 car units of 377/2 to make 8 cars..

I expect the total number of dual voltage four car units will be quite a few more than needed, even for 2 tph 8 car, but of course the franchise spec also allows for the option of changing at least the 'southern end' originating station. I think they use about 6 units on a daily basis for todays service, which includes a few short workings, and I think it was worked out a while back that the 2 tph of 8 car needs about 20 unit diagrams. So that's all the 377/2s and some of the 377/5 fleet + spares, say around 24 minimum.

 

[ert47]

Your second suggestion is illogical, because it is the combined TSGN that will still need the dual voltage 377/2s and 377/5s for their planned 2 tph 8 car service on the WLL to Milton Keynes, whereas Southeastern have no need for dual voltage 377s. (As far as known plans are concerned anyway...)

But saying that, Southeastern do have some dual voltage 375s.

 

[RobShipway]

But saying that, Southeastern do have some dual voltage 375s.

Aren't the some of the 465's dual voltage as well that the South Eastern have?

 

[swt_passenger]

But saying that, Southeastern do have some dual voltage 375s.

Agreed , but only by historical accident. It doesn't justify having or needing any 377/2s or /5s at all...

 

[user15681]

Aren't the some of the 465's dual voltage as well that the South Eastern have?

Nope, no dual voltage 465s.

There are 30 dual voltage 375s in the Southeastern fleet of 112. As far as I'm aware though, 375601 is the only one to have run under OHLE and that was during testing, the others never have.

 

[RobShipway]

Nope, no dual voltage 465s.

There are 30 dual voltage 375s in the Southeastern fleet of 112. As far as I'm aware though, 375601 is the only one to have run under OHLE and that was during testing, the others never have.

I am sure that I have seen a 465, with a pantograph on or a vehicle from a class 313 within the unit?

 

[59CosG95]

Nope, no dual voltage 465s.

There are 30 dual voltage 375s in the Southeastern fleet of 112. As far as I'm aware though, 375601 is the only one to have run under OHLE and that was during testing, the others never have.

Weren't some of then used for the joint SE/FCC services to/from Kent and the MML? Or was it a 319 exclusive?

 

[Domh245]

When south eastern was run by connex, and during the NSE era, there were class 365s in use, but these were later transferred to WAGN. The 365s even had their pantograph wells covered up by connex.

 

[user15681]

Strictly speaking the 365s are dual voltage, although have their shoes removed. The front end of the 365 used to be identical to the 465, maybe that's what you've seen?

That's correct, the SE/FCC services are run with 319s.

I think the point remains though that SE have no need for dual voltage stock at the moment, so the 25 377s cascaded by internal movements, partially a result of 387s, will be the /1 subclass.

 

[Edvid]

That's correct, the SE/FCC services are run with 319s.

Only the services that don't go beyond Sevenoaks or Orpington. 377/5s cover the handful of services to Ashford International and the Medway.

 

[Class377/5]

I've heard that was to be the 377/1s (older ones) but might just end up being the 377s currently leased to FCC when they get displaced.

The 25x 377 going to Southeastern will be either /1 or /4 as the ITT stated four DC only units. The /1 have been mentioned due to some of them having the 375 spec initally.

 

[Fincra5]

Only the services that don't go beyond Sevenoaks or Orpington. 377/5s cover the handful of services to Ashford International and the Medway.

Do the 377/5s have conductors on them beyond the DOO areas?

 

[TEW]

The 25x 377 going to Southeastern will be either /1 or /4 as the ITT stated four DC only units. The /1 have been mentioned due to some of them having the 375 spec initally.

Although it's only the first 20 377s which have 375 spec AFAIK, so not enough for the 25 units set to transfer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do the 377/5s have conductors on them beyond the DOO areas?

Yes. Last time I saw one of the joint FCC/SE services the conductor boarded at St Pancras.

 

[DJL]

Is it true that 375 and 377 (at least the early ones) are virtually identical?

I read somewhere (a long time ago so maybe I remember it incorrectly) that the first 377s were originally 375. But then SN changed the couplers on them and reclassified as 377. When SE did the same to their units, for some reason they remained as 375.

If the above is true would this mean when those same early units transfer to SE that they would get reclassified again back to 375?

 

[samuelmorris]

Is it true that 375 and 377 (at least the early ones) are virtually identical?

I read somewhere (a long time ago so maybe I remember it incorrectly) that the first 377s were originally 375. But then SN changed the couplers on them and reclassified as 377. When SE did the same to their units, for some reason they remained as 375.

If the above is true would this mean when those same early units transfer to SE that they would get reclassified again back to 375?

My recollection here is that it was the 3-car units that were reclassified - 375/3 becoming 377/3.

 

[TEW]

Is it true that 375 and 377 (at least the early ones) are virtually identical?

Virtually. As far as I know the main difference is that 375s lack bodyside mounted DOO cameras.

 

[user15681]

Southern's 28 377/3s used to be 375/3s, they just changed class when the couplers were changed.

I've never seen a 377+375 work together (there's been no real need or reason to), so I don't know if it's feasible with the software and mechanics, but they are pretty much the same units. The 377 were just a slight adaptation of the 375 spec.

 

[Class377/5]

Southern's 28 377/3s used to be 375/3s, they just changed class when the couplers were changed.

I've never seen a 377+375 work together (there's been no real need or reason to), so I don't know if it's feasible with the software and mechanics, but they are pretty much the same units. The 377 were just a slight adaptation of the 375 spec.

They can rescue each other but software wise its a no no. You can't couple a 377/1 to a 377/6 a the moment because of software. Making the 375 and 377 compatible tho shouldn't that difficult but you need around a day to replace the software on it first.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Southern's 28 377/3s used to be 375/3s, they just changed class when the couplers were changed.

They also dropped 10 from their original fleet numbers, thus 375 311 became 377 301 and so on.