Class 379 Miscellanea

[STN commuter]

379001 has ventured into service today. It can be found on Stansted Express services coupled to 379021.

Only 002 & 030 to enter service now.

So where the hell are they all? In Ilford depot, kaput?

I doubt if 50% of the STEX services I see currently are 379's, more are still 317's :cry:

 

[Kingfisher200262]

So where the hell are they all? In Ilford depot, kaput?

I doubt if 50% of the STEX services I see currently are 379's, more are still 317's :cry:

And that's a bad thing? Currently on 028 and it's been stop-start all the way from Liverpool Street to Broxbourne.

 

[rockford]

And that's a bad thing? Currently on 028 and it's been stop-start all the way from Liverpool Street to Broxbourne.

Me too! I appreciated the updates from the driver though - nice to be kept informed why rather than just a meaningless apology.

 

[STN commuter]

And that's a bad thing? Currently on 028 and it's been stop-start all the way from Liverpool Street to Broxbourne.

028.....I dread seeing that unit :-x

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

So where the hell are they all? In Ilford depot, kaput?

I doubt if 50% of the STEX services I see currently are 379's, more are still 317's :cry:

There were a lot out today (or at least I thought there was). 029 keeps popping up everywhere. Every time I ventured onto the platform there was a set there. I'm pretty sure the allocation of 10 on Cambridge services is not far from completion. Stansted services I think are still running with 5 sets of 379's and 4 sets of 317's.

The problem still is driver training as I'm sure O L Leigh will verify- there aren't enough drivers trained yet to have all the 379's in service.

And of course there's still the odd unit spitting it's dummy out- such as 016 that refused to allow it's tail lights to be turned off on the leading cab this morning.

 

[jon0844]

016 that refused to allow it's tail lights to be turned off on the leading cab this morning.

If Bombardier doesn't leave the UK, perhaps we should kick them out ourselves!

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem still is driver training as I'm sure O L Leigh will verify- there aren't enough drivers trained yet to have all the 379's in service.

To be fair they are catching up with driver training. There are at least four drivers at BIS out on the Module 2 training this week, myself included, all of whom should "sign" the new trains by next week, plus however many are up at the academy doing their Module 1.

And of course there's still the odd unit spitting it's dummy out- such as 016 that refused to allow it's tail lights to be turned off on the leading cab this morning.

Yup. Used that one for my static training today after it was pulled at BIS. The fitter had already been out to it and been defeated, so the train had been reformed with the affected cab boxed-in. I expect it was back out again for the evening peak.

However, I went down to Ilford yesterday and I would have to guess that there were at least 11 Cl379s on the depot when I got there, so it seems that full utilisation is still a little way off.

O L Leigh

 

[T163R]

If Bombardier doesn't leave the UK, perhaps we should kick them out ourselves!

Yep, it's better for you to just keep Siemens trains

 

[lm321412]

If Bombardier doesn't leave the UK, perhaps we should kick them out ourselves!

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.

Maybe you will support the families of people then who will lose their jobs as a result of this?


Just a thought...

 

[jon0844]

Maybe you will support the families of people then who will lose their jobs as a result of this?

Just a thought...

It is sad, but what is far worse is how Bombardier allowed trains to go out with ridiculous faults; faults that will no doubt cost TOCs and the industry a fortune when trains are late, taken out of service, short formed etc etc.

Why should I support the families? What part did I play in Bombardier being s**t?

Management should be held to account for allowing there to be, frankly, pathetic quality control. Even if the faults are with contractors working for Bombardier, so what? The end result is what matters to the customer - and ultimately the poor passenger who must suffer these 'mistakes' for the next 20, 30 or 40 years.

Some of the people who may lose their jobs (and by all accounts, they were going anyway) must surely be partially to blame for this? I bet those who may be laid off probably know who they are too.

It's hardly just the 379s. There's a thread about problems on the 172s, 378s, the FCC 377/5s and the Victoria Line trains. No doubt others on the new S Stock will follow when they're introduced in large numbers.

At this point, whether or not Siemens or anyone else is any better is irrelevant. So what if Siemens or Alstom are just as bad? That's another problem that needs to be dealt with, not the acceptance that they're all terrible so - hey ho - let's just cross our fingers and hope.

Having had experience of accepting a new house (new build) on the basis that we'd deal with the snagging list later - which of course the developer never really did properly, leaving us to foot the bill for making good - I have come to the conclusion that if something has faults, you refuse delivery outright. Why should Bombardier now spend the next 10 years just to get the trains to work as designed?

I don't like hearing about any job losses - given they are all real people - but the company has to shoulder most of the blame, not passing on the blame and guilt onto people who have every right to say that the company isn't up to the job.

 

[O L Leigh]

I had my static day today when I was able to familiarise myself with the Cl379 properly rather than just looking at pictures of them. What surprised me is just how many names of foreign-based companies there were attached to various bits of equipment below the solebar. Sure it's nominally a British product and is certainly assembled here, but it's far from being vital to propping up the UK economy. This is especially the case when you remember just how many UK contractors there are for Siemens who would also have been feeling the pinch had the Thameslink contract gone to Bombardier.

But to get back to the point, the Desiros were little better when they were brand new. The Cl360s on the GE would shut themselves down every time they got a "red fault", lock passengers in the karzi going around the Manningtree triangle because the computer thought the CET tank was full and take ages to come back to life after going through a neutral section. A lot of this is just the usual new-train-teething-troubles that affects all classes of train. With practice, experience and in-service modifications all train fleets improve their reliability to the extent that faults and failures become fewer and further between.

Just because all the new train fleets recently introduced into service happen to have come from Litchurch Lane does not make the Bombardier product inferior to anyone else's. Just look north of the border at the problems Scotrail have been having with their Cl380s.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

The industry needs to improve the quality control and testing, to try and get rid of these faults before handing them over. If this means Bombardier and others must invest in more test tracks, someone should be trying to make sure this happens.

Perhaps one way is to levy hefty fines on companies that deliver trains with such crazy problems that take years to sort out. You, the TOC and the general public shouldn't be the testers. It's bad enough that you now see technology companies using the public as 'beta' testers, but a web service or even a smartphone with bugs that can be updated over the air is nothing in comparison to this.

I have to assume Boeing, Airbus (and even Bombardier) have better testing on their planes?

But getting back on topic; good luck with your training and may you not suffer any of these problems in the long run!

 

[317666]

Yep, it's better for you to just keep Siemens trains

Or better yet, keep the good old BREL Class 317s

 

[O L Leigh]

I am lead to believe that Bombardier are underwriting all the delay fines resulting from fleet issues with the Cl379s for a fixed term, so the fines and incentives are already in place.

Also the Cl379s have been through an exhaustive fleet testing program with 001 going to the test track at Velim in the Czech Republic and, together with 002, operating test trains on the WA. In addition, all units have undergone shakedown testing on the WCML as well as a program of testing at Derby. The problem, as with all new trains, is that no-one ever really knows what will happen until they actually start out in passenger service. This is when the element of unpredictability comes into play, because passenger behaviour cannot be predicted.

I will concede that my experience of these units is currently extremely limited, but none have failed when I've been travelling PASS on them and, apart from there being issues with pan bounce and the unit taking action to protect it's more delicate electronics from transient over and under-voltages from the overheads by popping the VCB, I have experienced nothing more intrusive than a very minor door fault at LST that was remedied quickly and successfully.

Bombardier are not new to this game and have designed units that have gone on to be the most reliable 3rd generation EMUs in the UK. The problems that we are experiencing with the Cl379s are not terrible and I have confidence that they will soon be resolved. Compared to how dreadful the reliability was when they were first in passenger service, things are already on the up. Singling Bombardier out for particular criticism is grossly unfair, especially when you consider the problems that Siemens are having with the Cl380s.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Or better yet, keep the good old BREL Class 317s

Did these have the same problems when they were introduced?

I can remember being stuck on one near Northumberland Park in the late 80s or early 90s, and we were even taken off the train (but I can't remember why) but I am not sure I can recall any major incidents in any of the years since - bar the odd door problem and, earlier this week, a ceiling panel that was resonating badly when going over about 65mph.

I am now taking a 321 in the morning and a 317 in the evening and I can't imagine either of them ever giving problems - but they've obviously had time to 'bed in'.

However, neither are as nice as the interior of the 379.. and I really like the 378s too. Thing is, I don't use either of them (or the 377/5s) often enough to experience problems, so my view would change somewhat if I was commuting on either - or any other Bombardier train. I have been on a new Victoria Line train that has broken due to a door fault though, and that wasn't nice given the heat inside.

I am lead to believe that Bombardier are underwriting all the delay fines resulting from fleet issues with the Cl379s for a fixed term, so the fines and incentives are already in place.

That's good news. I wonder how much that will be, and if they factored that into the bid in the first place?!

Also the Cl379s have been through an exhaustive fleet testing program with 001 going to the test track at Velim in the Czech Republic and, together with 002, operating test trains on the WA. In addition, all units have undergone shakedown testing on the WCML as well as a program of testing at Derby. The problem, as with all new trains, is that no-one ever really knows what will happen until they actually start out in passenger service. This is when the element of unpredictability comes into play, because passenger behaviour cannot be predicted.

I think you have probably already though the same thing as me, but why not have a test facility where you get members of the public to come and test out various things? I am sure they have had to fill a carriage with people to test emergency evacuation procedures (albeit perhaps only once for that train design) so it's not as if they couldn't do it.

My first job was a computer games tester, and my job was to spend hours a day playing games with the sole intention of breaking them. As I said before, these days with over-the-air updates, companies can release software with loads of bugs and then fix them after customers complain and report them. It wasn't like that when I worked on games released on tape and disc, where an update was very costly.

That said, problems with the lights, PIS, the pantographs and doors aren't all things that would be expected to fail on account of the great unwashed getting access to them (well, perhaps the doors).

I will concede that my experience of these units is currently extremely limited, but none have failed when I've been travelling PASS on them and, apart from there being issues with pan bounce and the unit taking action to protect it's more delicate electronics from transient over and under-voltages from the overheads by popping the VCB, I have experienced nothing more intrusive than a very minor door fault at LST that was remedied quickly and successfully.

So, you bring good luck! Stick with them then!!

Bombardier are not new to this game and have designed units that have gone on to be the most reliable 3rd generation EMUs in the UK. The problems that we are experiencing with the Cl379s are not terrible and I have confidence that they will soon be resolved. Compared to how dreadful the reliability was when they were first in passenger service, things are already on the up. Singling Bombardier out for particular criticism is grossly unfair, especially when you consider the problems that Siemens are having with the Cl380s.

Grossly unfair? Do you really think so? I am not defending others like Siemens either. I think they're all at fault for not improving their testing to stop these things happening BEFORE they're handed over. Especially trains based on supposed tried and tested designs, which should be bullet proof.

The only things that should be going wrong are things that passengers can break/damage, which wouldn't be the fault of the train manufacturer at all.

 

[O L Leigh]

You say that like Bombardier have been sitting on their hands all this time. We haven't had these units 6 months and already we are getting update after update. These might not be coming out "over the air", but we're getting them all the same.

I think you're being slightly unrealistic about getting these units bullet-proof so soon. I recently travelled on a SET Cl375 and was amazed by just how different it was from a Cl379. Specifications change, and not just as a consequence of TOC requirements.

A lot of it is also down to traincrew familiarisation. The Cl379 is a vastly different unit from anything we currently "sign". Basic traction for WA drivers is either Cl315 (for newer drivers) or Cl317 with just a single day's conversion course for the other class. The Cl379 requires seven days training; four at the academy in the classroom and simulator, two days practical handling and a static day. Driving technique, train faults and everything else is radically different for these units compared to anything else we're used to. Where faults and failures are resulting in delays or cancellations, this is not necessarily a result of the fragility of the train itself but with the confidence of the driver to correctly identify a fault and rectify it. Just simple tasks like attaching a portion is far more involved than is currently the case with our existing traction.

We will get there with these trains, so please don't write them (or us) off just yet.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

I am confident the trains will be sorted, and have no concern about the drivers but I am still of the opinion that ALL train companies (including Siemens!) need to work on this. I know you need to be trained on basic fault finding and other things, but you shouldn't need to worry about pretty basic things failing, or not working in the first place!

Now, I don't remember what things were like when the 317s came in, and I'm too young to know about the 313s or 315s, so maybe it was just as bad then - but I think too many things are rushed out, and fixed later - from computer software, to new build homes, to trains, cars and - well - loads of things.

Maybe my aspirations are too high and unrealistic, but I'll always think that. No doubt when we get the new TL trains, we'll be able to sit on here and say the same - unless things do change.

 

[STN commuter]

So where the hell are they all? In Ilford depot, kaput?

I doubt if 50% of the STEX services I see currently are 379's, more are still 317's :cry:

However, I went down to Ilford yesterday and I would have to guess that there were at least 11 Cl379s on the depot when I got there, so it seems that full utilisation is still a little way off.

O L Leigh

My guess was correct then

Or better yet, keep the good old BREL Class 317s

No thank you.

I have had the misfortune to travel on these obsolete worn out pieces of junk daily for the last 20 years, previously from Whittlesford/Audley End then from Stansted Airport for the last 14 years, so I have had to put up with the 317/7 and all its own faults for the last decade

Noisy, draughty, heating stuck on in summer, no heating in winter, leaking aircon, internal doors failing, I could go on....

The 379, when it works, IS a quantum leap ahead. And the thing I like about the 379 the most? - when we arrive at Bishops Stortford in the morning and the commuters can no longer get in and rip all the hoppers open, summer and winter, creating a howling wind tunnel and disabling the 317/7 aircon (if it is one of the minority that it still works), without a thought for others around them

However, the 379 does remind me a bit of British Leyland and its products in the 70's - all the final reliability testing was done by the purchasers

 

[jon0844]

FCC only has a few 317s and they're pretty basic interior wise and not nice when crowded (thanks to the 3+2 seating) but they're reliable.

I do agree about the windows, but that's a problem on ALL FCC stock (377 excepted). The 365s and 313s are noisiest though!

Obviously, I'd prefer shiny new stock with aircon (a real issue for me, as I don't like excessive heat) but I'd expect a new train to totally destroy one that's 30 odd years old.

Anyway, given Bombardier is liable for delay penalties I am happier than I was - and hope this provides an incentive to fix things quickly. I wonder what the staff on the ground having to make these fixes think about those who put the train together!

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Currently sitting on 379001 at the London end of car 62101, and the ride is horrendous! Hitting the bump stops on the suspension frequently and hunting on curves.

Far worse than a 317.... not noticed this on other units, is this a rogue?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am confident the trains will be sorted, and have no concern about the drivers but I am still of the opinion that ALL train companies (including Siemens!) need to work on this. I know you need to be trained on basic fault finding and other things, but you shouldn't need to worry about pretty basic things failing, or not working in the first place!

Now, I don't remember what things were like when the 317s came in, and I'm too young to know about the 313s or 315s, so maybe it was just as bad then - but I think too many things are rushed out, and fixed later - from computer software, to new build homes, to trains, cars and - well - loads of things.

Maybe my aspirations are too high and unrealistic, but I'll always think that. No doubt when we get the new TL trains, we'll be able to sit on here and say the same - unless things do change.

I once had a chat with a customer of Siemens Desiros and he criticised Siemens for needing to throw labour at the maintenance to keep the availability high and that if they hadn't done this, the reliability would have been mediocre. I simply pointed out that Siemens' availability and reliability were best in class and that this was all he should really worry about. This is how a train provision contract is supposed to work and the maintainer should do everything necessary to meet the customer's requirement, no matter how much reseource is needed to do it.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite a few seem to be being stabled at Cambridge over the weekend- there's two 12 car (!) formations sitting in the sidings by the wash road to the east of the tracks, and two single units sitting in sidings that I've only seen DMUs in before, by the NXEA staff depot to the west of the lines. Run out of space at Ilford? Also, does this mean more services are going over to 379s- thought there was just a single and a double diagrammed fro Cambridge services at the moment?

 

[jopsuk]

Anyone able to shed a light on this mornings oddity? the 0718 from Cambridge departed late, in two parts(!). The front part, with passengers throughout, didn't have it's front gangway properly shut. The rear part had three or four people sat in the 1st class section closest to the rear cab, plus there was someone in the rear cab itself- the unit seemed to moving fine.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Anyone able to shed a light on this mornings oddity? the 0718 from Cambridge departed late, in two parts(!). The front part, with passengers throughout, didn't have it's front gangway properly shut. The rear part had three or four people sat in the 1st class section closest to the rear cab, plus there was someone in the rear cab itself- the unit seemed to moving fine.

379012 had a defective coupler preventing it attaching to the other unit.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

379's today (27th July) as of 1800hrs:

005 & 006 - Stansted
010 & 024- Stansted
004 & 025- Stansted
007 & 011- Cambridge
009 & 018- Stansted
021- Cambridge / Ely
015 & 022- Stansted
008 & 026- Cambridge
020 & 027- Cambridge
014 & 029- Stansted
017 & 023- Stansted
016 & 003- Cambridge

Only two pairs of 317's on STEX services today:

710 & 732
729 & 708

 

[Kingfisher200262]

379's today (27th July) as of 18.00

Only two pairs of 317's on STEX services today:

710 & 732
729 & 708

Several cancellations on StEx this evening... Anybody know what's happening?

I almost commented on the allocation this morning, wondering where the rest of the 379 fleet is... Is there a stock shortage?

 

[STN commuter]

Several cancellations on StEx this evening... Anybody know what's happening?

I almost commented on the allocation this morning, wondering where the rest of the 379 fleet is... Is there a stock shortage?

When I left LivSt on the 1640 this evening (afternoon ) there were delays, signals or points I believe.

The shortage of 379's in service currently appears to be lack of trained drivers, not rolling stock - a few days ago all but two units had been delivered for passenger service.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

When I left LivSt on the 1640 this evening (afternoon ) there were delays, signals or points I believe.

The shortage of 379's in service currently appears to be lack of trained drivers, not rolling stock - a few days ago all but two units had been delivered for passenger service.

There is no shortage of 379's in service. All are in service that should be. The Cambridge allocation is almost complete. The Stansted Express is still running with two pairs of 317's but these are supposed to be there until more drivers are trained.

There's 14 units being used daily for Stansted services, about 9 for Cambridge (makes 23), 002 & 030 haven't been delivered yet (that's 25), two units for maintenance (27), 3 for driver training- 30.

Re tonight's problem: 003 & 016 decided they didn't want their CCTV to work, and 004 & 025 had the same fault so I understand.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

There is no shortage of 379's in service. All are in service that should be. The Cambridge allocation is almost complete. The Stansted Express is still running with two pairs of 317's but these are supposed to be there until more drivers are trained.

There's 14 units being used daily for Stansted services, about 9 for Cambridge (makes 23), 002 & 030 haven't been delivered yet (that's 25), two units for maintenance (27), 3 for driver training- 30.

Re tonight's problem: 003 & 016 decided they didn't want their CCTV to work, and 004 & 025 had the same fault so I understand.

Thanks for that. Given that StEx seem to have guards back on board, could they not switch over to DGO, so that the CCTV is not necessary, in such a situation?

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Thanks for that. Given that StEx seem to have guards back on board, could they not switch over to DGO, so that the CCTV is not necessary, in such a situation?

They are not guards. Just there to check tickets. We were all under the impression that if the cameras fail, then the train gets dispatched by a dispatcher rather than the driver doing it through the cameras. But maybe there was more to the problem than just the CCTV not working tonight.

 

[STN commuter]

When I left LivSt on the 1640 this evening (afternoon ) there were delays, signals or points I believe.

The shortage of 379's in service currently appears to be lack of trained drivers, not rolling stock - a few days ago all but two units had been delivered for passenger service.

There is no shortage of 379's in service. All are in service that should be. The Cambridge allocation is almost complete. The Stansted Express is still running with two pairs of 317's but these are supposed to be there until more drivers are trained.

There's 14 units being used daily for Stansted services, about 9 for Cambridge (makes 23), 002 & 030 haven't been delivered yet (that's 25), two units for maintenance (27), 3 for driver training- 30.

Re tonight's problem: 003 & 016 decided they didn't want their CCTV to work, and 004 & 025 had the same fault so I understand.

I think you misread me. I was saying all but 2 x 379 are now actually available for service, but not all drivers are trained - so we are saying the same thing - (I got my info from your post #395 ).