Class 376 future at Southeastern

[ScotGG]

These 5 car trains are 10 years old and were a cheap solution for more capacity at the time instead of completing upgrades needed for 12 car running. Since then, money has been spent on Southeastern metro routes to make it mostly 12 car capable, and would it not make sense for SE to now get stock to make use of 12 car platforms?

I was looking at the 707 order for SWT. 30 units of 5 car trains. There's 36 class 376s at Southeastern not able to make best use of its 12 car platforms.

Was there a reason those units were not transferred to SWT, where at 10 cars they would be the max length for some of their metro lines, and SE received new stock with SDO to run 12 cars on its metro lines to make use of the newly upgraded railway?

Or is SE stuck with 10 car trains for 20-30 years missing out on 12 cars? It seems silly that 10 cars are rumbling through places of rapid growth like Lewisham not taking advantage of possible capacity. Perhaps they will go to Southern to replace class 455 in a few years?

 

[Feathers44]

Perhaps they will go to Southern to replace class 455 in a few years?

I thought I'd read the the Southern 455s were pretty much surpluss to requirements anyway with all of the different flavours of 377 now in service. I didn't think they were going to replaced with anything rather than simply dying out.

 

[physics34]

I thought I'd read the the Southern 455s were pretty much surpluss to requirements anyway with all of the different flavours of 377 now in service. I didn't think they were going to replaced with anything rather than simply dying out.

455s in service til at least 2021 (when TSGN franchise ends, and or replacement stock is ordered) but less intensely due to rising maintainance requirements, but yes more 377s will be avaliable for metro work.

 

[telstarbox]

Realistically you can fit as many passengers on a 10-car 376 as a 12-car 465 so it's unlikely that they're going anywhere.

 

[MrB]

Could the 376s have an extra coach added or is there a technical reason why this can't happen?

 

[D365]

Could the 376s have an extra coach added or is there a technical reason why this can't happen?

The issues with this have been discussed here concurrently.

 

[MrB]

The issues with this have been discussed here concurrently.

Thank you I shall have to keep up with this thread too!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought I'd read the the Southern 455s were pretty much surpluss to requirements anyway with all of the different flavours of 377 now in service. I didn't think they were going to replaced with anything rather than simply dying out.

If the SN455s were surplus, they could do worse than to put them on the Coastway as they are 5 years newer than the 313s.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the SN455s were surplus, they could do worse than to put them on the Coastway as they are 5 years newer than the 313s.

They aren't surplus though. People have been explaining this on and off ever since the TSGN franchise was awarded.

 

[ScotGG]

Realistically you can fit as many passengers on a 10-car 376 as a 12-car 465 so it's unlikely that they're going anywhere.

That's not the comparison I was making. A 10-car 376 verses new build 12-car capable units to replace them, with SDO to run on metro routes which cannot take 12-car networkers.

That would be a capacity increase to help with the next decades growth.

Fundamentally, with SE metro we now have a 12-car capable metro network infrastructure after much investment (on the whole) so running 10 cars is a waste. Those 10 cars could go to third rail franchises to operate where 10-cars IS the limit (a fair bit of SWT and Southern metro routes), and SE get stock which can utilise it's infrastructure. Issues with the minority of places where 10-cars is the limit would be solved with the new stock having SDO.

The Networkers are separate. They could also move but I'd imagine more resistance from Southern or SWT in taking them as a fair bit older, the fleet is much larger so SWT or Southern would find it hard to accommodate.

 

[Mikey C]

Doesn't Charing Cross struggle with 12 car trains?

 

[ScotGG]

Some platforms do. That could be fixed with DSP capable stock? But most (all?) 376s run to Cannon Street which can take 12 car.

Southern have 48 Class 455s which are run as 8 cars in the peak on lines which can take 10, I believe. Southeastern have 36 376s which can run as 10 car. Send them over to Southern to maximise their infrastructure, alongside 12 new build 5 car class 377 or 378ss (we know there's some possibility of more being ordered before it finally wraps up and aventra arrives) and Southeastern get 36 (or more) new build stock that can run at 12-car to use its infrastructure to its potential.

 

[hwl]

Some platforms do. That could be fixed with DSP capable stock? But most (all?) 376s run to Cannon Street which can take 12 car.

Southern have 48 Class 455s which are run as 8 cars in the peak on lines which can take 10, I believe. Southeastern have 36 376s which can run as 10 car. Send them over to Southern to maximise their infrastructure, alongside 12 new build 5 car class 377 or 378ss (we know there's some possibility of more being ordered before it finally wraps up and aventra arrives) and Southeastern get 36 (or more) new build stock that can run at 12-car to use its infrastructure to its potential.

There are still plenty of 8 car routes e.g. London Bridge via Tulse Hill and they have 455s.
Southern are solving the small number of 8 car 455s on 10 car routes by using 377s released by the introduction of 700s (3car +3 car +4car).
Southern 10 car routes need SDO which all their 377s already have as there are still 7/8/9 car platforms that are expensive to deal with for the time being.

Hence 376s are not the solution.

Longer term NR are looking at 10 car routes to 12 car and 8 car to 10 car hence more 10 car for Southern probably isn't useful in the longer term as they will need more 4/6 car units instead of 5car.

 

[zn1]

the 455's based at selhurst have an intensive daily work plan.have had since introduction, they well maintained, the crews and staff know them inside out, the 313's have bedded down at Lovers walk and are doing a good job down there on the coast way...Govia would be mad to give them away i think...

 

[87015]

the 455's based at selhurst have an intensive daily work plan.have had since introduction, they well maintained, the crews and staff know them inside out, the 313's have bedded down at Lovers walk and are doing a good job down there on the coast way...Govia would be mad to give them away i think...

Well maintained - the Southern ones??? You must travel on a different fleet to me! They are absolute dogs inside, rare to find one that has working heat and often go around with massive amounts of tape covering up holes in the wall. Might work well enough (although short forms are fairly common) but utter junk for passengers.

 

[cjmillsnun]

They aren't surplus though. People have been explaining this on and off ever since the TSGN franchise was awarded.

Which is why I used the word if
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well maintained - the Southern ones??? You must travel on a different fleet to me! They are absolute dogs inside, rare to find one that has working heat and often go around with massive amounts of tape covering up holes in the wall. Might work well enough (although short forms are fairly common) but utter junk for passengers.

I agree, they may not break down much, but the SWT fleet is far better maintained.

 

[Townsend Hook]

the 313's have bedded down at Lovers walk and are doing a good job down there on the coast way...Govia would be mad to give them away i think...

The 313s are simply not up to the job on the Coastway. They are just barely acceptable for Brighton to West Worthing/Seaford, but using them on the Brighton/Littlehampton-Portsmouth services is indefensible; roasting hot in the summer, cramped and with a hideously uncomfortable ride. When travelling to/from a track patrol with Barnham PWay we would always make a beeline for the 313s because you can really feel each and every track defect.