Class 37 and 47 window glazing.

[wairoaalbany]

Hi all I am wondering if anybody can help me here. I am curious as to why the Class 37 and Class 47 had window glazing (tinting.) The only place I have seen it mentioned is Bachmann model trains.

Furthermore did all produced locomotives of the above classes have this glazing? Or only the early variants?

Was this glazing (tinting) removed as the engines were updated in their lives?

Finally did the Class 57 have window glazing (tint) like the earlier 47?

Thanks in advance, Craig.

EDIT: Trying to make my question more accurate.

 

[Towers]

You might need to be a wee bit more specific - what exactly are you referring to by 'window glazing'?

 

[skyhigh]

I am curious as to why the Class 37 and Class 47 had window glazing.

Because the holes would be pretty draughty without the glass in them?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Hi all I am wondering if anybody can help me here. I am curious as to why the Class 37 and Class 47 had window glazing.

Furthermore did all produced locomotives of the above classes have this glazing? Or only the early variants?

Was this glazing removed as the engines were updated in their lives?

Finally did the Class 57 have window glazing like the earlier 47?

Thanks in advance, Craig.

Glazing helps as the driver needs to look ahead.

 

[wairoaalbany]

You might need to be a wee bit more specific - what exactly are you referring to by 'window glazing'?

I think the tint on the windows. So far the only thing I have read about it is from Bachmann model train company.

 

[E27007]

Dates back many decades ago, and I have not seen any locos with the tint effect for a very long time, the screens had a conductive coating to pass electricity and heat the scren to prevent misting, the coating gave the screen a purple tint under certain lighting conditions.
I think the coating may haver been gold, Probably abandoned due to cost or ineefective.

 

[greyman42]

I remember the 47s having this in the late 1970s.

 

[E27007]

I remember the 47s having this in the late 1970s.

The 47s were the most obvious, from memory, at a Derby Works open day in the late 60s, copies of Rail News newspaper were given away to visitors, Rail News had an article about the special screens of the 47, the journalist made great copy of the coating being of gold.
The coating was more of a reflection than a tint, when light ( sunlight) struck the screen at certain angles, the coating became visible, it may have been a reflection of the sky, not sure of the physics, Brewsters Angle?

Thinking back of greater than 50 years ago, I hope my long-term memory is not playing tricks

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 47s were the most obvious, from memory, at a Derby Works open day in the late 60s, copies of Rail News newspaper were given away to visitors, Rail News had an article about the special screens of the 47, the journalist made great copy of the coating being of gold.
The coating was more of a reflection than a tint, when light ( sunlight) struck the screen at certain angles, the coating became visible, it may have been a reflection of the sky, not sure of the physics, Brewsters Angle?

Thinking back of greater than 50 years ago, I hope my long-term memory is not playing tricks

Yes. That is how i remember it with the class 47. I believe the screens were laminated andwithin one of the laminations was the gold demisting film. This caused the windscreens to reflect in a certain lights. I don't however remember it on the class 37s, but I doubt Bachmann would have gone to the trouble of recreating it unless it is prototypical.

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[wairoaalbany]

The 47s were the most obvious, from memory, at a Derby Works open day in the late 60s, copies of Rail News newspaper were given away to visitors, Rail News had an article about the special screens of the 47, the journalist made great copy of the coating being of gold.
The coating was more of a reflection than a tint, when light ( sunlight) struck the screen at certain angles, the coating became visible, it may have been a reflection of the sky, not sure of the physics, Brewsters Angle?

Thinking back of greater than 50 years ago, I hope my long-term memory is not playing tricks

Yes. That is how i remember it with the class 47. I believe the screens were laminated andwithin one of the laminations was the gold demisting film. This caused the windscreens to reflect in a certain lights. I don't however remember it on the class 37s, but I doubt Bachmann would have gone to the trouble of recreating it unless it is prototypical.

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Thanks to you both. Very interesting indeed. I am finding the windows on the 37 and 47 quite fascinating.

Great photos by the way. Thanks.

 

[E27007]

I'd like to raise the question of why the coated screens were abandoned.
Was it a safety issue such as affecting the drivers perception of red/yellow/green colour light signals?
Standards have moved on, for example driver's sunglasses have to be company issue from approved suppliers, the sunglasses must not affect the colour vision of the driver.
From the past when such things were lax, a driver wrote of LMR 25kV electrics having poorly sealed windscreens which would fill with water, he wrote of driving one where the water trapped in the screen had turned green due to algae.
Imagine running at 100mph and reading colour light signals through that.

 

[wairoaalbany]

That’s a good question. I was reading on I think an American website there was an accident caused in part by drivers on the Santa Fe RR causing an accident due to the wrong sun glasses making a red signal appear yellow.

 

[y3j]

HST Power Cars have long had a purple tint to some windscreens. 43010 for example:

43010

Didcot 20 May 2010

flickr.com

 

[wairoaalbany]

HST Power Cars have long had a purple tint to some windscreens. 43010 for example:

43010

Didcot 20 May 2010

flickr.com

That’s interesting. I hope the model train industry will start to take more notice of window tinting and also the right kind. It appears that some manufacturers do, at least, at times and others not so much.

 

[Cowley]

That’s interesting. I hope the model train industry will start to take more notice of window tinting and also the right kind. It appears that some manufacturers do, at least, at times and others not so much.

I think it’s incredibly difficult with models because virtually every single loco has some variation or another. It wouldn’t be too difficult to achieve yourself if you wanted to try and improve/personalise a model though.

 

[wairoaalbany]

I think it’s incredibly difficult with models because virtually every single loco has some variation or another. It wouldn’t be too difficult to achieve yourself if you wanted to try and improve/personalise a model though.

That's a good point, thanks. I have been at looking at a couple of forums where people have tinted windows on their models to reflect a specific locomotive.

 

[Alanko]

Interesting thread! D9009 appears to have unusually coloured front windows. I noticed this when it was parked up in Waverley a few years ago. It looked like quite a smeary and opaque finish from the outside.


47643 at Bo'ness appears to have retained one tinted window (at the number 2 end?) and one plain window.

 

[Grumpy]

With regard to the class 47's, the glazing seemed to differ depending where they were built. I recall that it was easy to tell a Loughborough built loco from a Crewe loco as the former had tinted windscreens and the latter seemed to be plain glass

 

[randyrippley]

Back in the 1970s most locos had what looked like non-reflective anti-glare coatings on the screens, making them look purple or green depending on the viewing angle. I remember 47, Peaks, Warships, Westerns, 50, Hymeks, 33, 25
I don't remember it on any DMUs

 

[37114]

With regard to the class 47's, the glazing seemed to differ depending where they were built. I recall that it was easy to tell a Loughborough built loco from a Crewe loco as the former had tinted windscreens and the latter seemed to be plain glass

I seem to recall the tail lights were different as well, one works had top hinged, the other side hinged

 

[Wyrleybart]

I'd like to raise the question of why the coated screens were abandoned.
Was it a safety issue such as affecting the drivers perception of red/yellow/green colour light signals?
Standards have moved on, for example driver's sunglasses have to be company issue from approved suppliers, the sunglasses must not affect the colour vision of the driver.
From the past when such things were lax, a driver wrote of LMR 25kV electrics having poorly sealed windscreens which would fill with water, he wrote of driving one where the water trapped in the screen had turned green due to algae.
Imagine running at 100mph and reading colour light signals through that.

I thought we established that the screens weren't coated. They actually had a gold film within the laminations for demisting purposes and were not deliberately tinted for vision purposes

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Re the photo of 47643 at Bo ness you can see the electrical connection half way up the screen where it is connected to the loco's electrical connections.

It is not tinted. It is merely a gold film within the laminations of the glass which make it look like a tint.

 

[Alanko]

Re the photo of 47643 at Bo ness you can see the electrical connection half way up the screen where it is connected to the loco's electrical connections.

Only on the left hand window though?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Only on the left hand window though?

Yes. The second man's window

 

[D1537]

With regard to the class 47's, the glazing seemed to differ depending where they were built. I recall that it was easy to tell a Loughborough built loco from a Crewe loco as the former had tinted windscreens and the latter seemed to be plain glass

I seem to recall the tail lights were different as well, one works had top hinged, the other side hinged

Correct.

Brush-built machines had tail lamps that hinged from the side, Crewe from the top and bottom.

There was also a subtle detail difference in the "ridge" that runs above the cab windows at the front; Brush machines had the ridge running the whole width of the cab front; on Crewe machines this ridge was in two parts with a gap between the windows.

*However* Crewe and Loughborough machines will have had a number of cab swaps and rebuilds over the years, so it's not a perfect science, the tail lamps especially.

The first two photos below show either end of Crewe-built 47469. You can clearly see the gap in the ridge between the windows at both ends, but note that No.2 end of 47469 has "Brush" tail lamps.
The third photo is Brush-built 47423, showing the "continuous" ridge.

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[wairoaalbany]

Correct.

Brush-built machines had tail lamps that hinged from the side, Crewe from the top and bottom.

There was also a subtle detail difference in the "ridge" that runs above the cab windows at the front; Brush machines had the ridge running the whole width of the cab front; on Crewe machines this ridge was in two parts with a gap between the windows.

*However* Crewe and Loughborough machines will have had a number of cab swaps and rebuilds over the years, so it's not a perfect science, the tail lamps especially.

The first two photos below show either end of Crewe-built 47469. You can clearly see the gap in the ridge between the windows at both ends, but note that No.2 end of 47469 has "Brush" tail lamps.
The third photo is Brush-built 47423, showing the "continuous" ridge.

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That is very interesting. I had never noticed those ridges before. I will have to have a look at the various models offered and check those brow ridges.

 

[Alanko]

Yes. The second man's window

One original Loughborough and one replacement Crewe window? Seems odd to only reward the second man with a de-misting window?

 

[D1537]

With regard to the class 47's, the glazing seemed to differ depending where they were built. I recall that it was easy to tell a Loughborough built loco from a Crewe loco as the former had tinted windscreens and the latter seemed to be plain glass

I believe this was the case initially, but Crewe-built ones were retrofitted from the late 1960s onwards.

This is the earliest example I can find - D1586 in 1967

D1586 Worcester 11/11/1967

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From a quick search most appeared to have been done by the early 70s.