Class 350s - SDO?

[6Gman]

Do LM 350s have Selective Door Opening?

If not, would it be a big job to install?

[Question prompted by suggestion of their using a [yet to be] new station which probably won't be 4 carriages in length!]

 

[MCR247]

No they don't. They have UDS which allows them to deselect a unit. It can't be that hard because SWT are fitting SDO to their desiros

 

[Crossover]

185s are the same. Pain in the rear this week at Hebden Bridge And Todmorden as once you're in a unit, you're stuffed if its the wrong one! Also confused passengers trying to get on too as part of the rear unit was on the platform (I advised a few people that only the front unit doors would be open as there were no announcements to say as much while I was at Hebden Bridge

 

[northwichcat]

Winsford's platforms are shorter than 80m but they can take a 350 stopped in the right position due to the door layout not including a passenger door right at the front or rear of the train.

 

[Monty]

No they don't. They have UDS which allows them to deselect a unit. It can't be that hard because SWT are fitting SDO to their desiros

Technically The Desiros have a limited SDO capability using the UDS switch mentioned. SWT 450s & 444s do this on a daily basis, as previously implied the limitation is that you either release all of the doors or isolate the rear unit(s) and release the front four (or five in the case of a 444). I imagine all the other UK spec Desiros can do this too, what SWT will eventually do is fit automatic selective door opening (ASDO) to it's desiro fleet. However the rebuilt 458s will receive this first and trackside equipment will need to be installed aswell. I beleive they will carry out trials on the Alton line first before rolling it out across the network.

 

[pompeyfan]

is it true 377s have ASDO? and do theirs require trackside infrastructure? as i never heard or saw of any being installed. on a side note are there many southern services that are too long for the platforms, they are rarely more then 1 unit around where i live (Portsmouth)

 

[Southern313]

377's have automatic SDO in a form. Previously at a location like Portslade where the up platform can take 11 coaches and the down can take 7 the SDO was set to the lowest number. Few years ago the software was updated and SDO beacons known to us as PIBS were installed in the four foot at the station so MITRAC knows which platform it is in and opens the maximum number of doors set for the platform. Therefore now Portslade 11 doors open on the up and 7 on the down.

There are quite a few locations and services we run where the train is longer then the platform...not Portsmouth way though. Only one 8 car goes to Portsmouth in the evening.

 

[MCR247]

That's why doors can (or at least they used to) take a while to open to Victoria.

 

[starrymarkb]

Electrostars use a GPS system IIRC, which wasn't accurate enough to identify which track a train was on... (Real World Civil GPS is usually accurate to +/- 3m - military can go finer)

 

[Southern313]

They still use the GPS to know where they are then PIBS to release the correct number of coaches. As GPS signal wasn't received under the rafters at Victoria the delay was the driver pressing door release buttons and MITRAC asking where it was, driver having to type in the first few letters to get the right station and confirming the location. Of course, despite all the technology we still have to know the coach lengths at platforms in case we need to do an emergency release.

 

[W230]

That's why doors can (or at least they used to) take a while to open to Victoria.

Likewise at St Pancras. I think the GPS on the 377/5 that sometimes has problems with its location and agreeing with the door beacons down in the core at St Pancras, so the location has to be manually input in Mitrac.

 

[pendolino]

is it true 377s have ASDO? and do theirs require trackside infrastructure? as i never heard or saw of any being installed. on a side note are there many southern services that are too long for the platforms, they are rarely more then 1 unit around where i live (Portsmouth)

SDO doesn't generally require any infrastructure, relying on the GPS signal, but as others have said, where this is unreliable PIBS beacons have been installed - they are a yellow grid in the 4ft, a bit like a TPWS loop but longer. I tried to find a picture for you but google just thinks I'm looking for pubs called 'The Beacon'.

There are plenty of Southern services that make use of SDO - 10 cars on the slow to London Bridge (some 8 car platforms), or 12 cars to East Grinstead (some 8 or 9 car platforms) for example. But loads of platforms have been/are being lengthened to 10 cars in the Metro area so SDO will end up being used less than it currently is.

 

[HSTEd]

Electrostars use a GPS system IIRC, which wasn't accurate enough to identify which track a train was on... (Real World Civil GPS is usually accurate to +/- 3m - military can go finer)

In a vacuum yes, but we now have some pretty crazy systems appearing with the advances in the processing power available for embedded systems.

For instance StarFire is accurate approximately to the inch but it needs good signal quality.

Differential GPS can obtain sub metre accuracy relatively easily now over the relatively small areas required for a single TOCs railway operations. (have a single differential GPS ground station near the railway or just use the feed from one of the London Airports when they go for dGPS)

 

[pendolino]

377's have automatic SDO in a form. Previously at a location like Portslade where the up platform can take 11 coaches and the down can take 7 the SDO was set to the lowest number. Few years ago the software was updated and SDO beacons known to us as PIBS were installed in the four foot at the station so MITRAC knows which platform it is in and opens the maximum number of doors set for the platform. Therefore now Portslade 11 doors open on the up and 7 on the down.

As far as I am aware, SDO on 377s used to use the direction the train is travelling in to determine the platform length where this differed from up to down. But I was once told that there was an incident a few years back where a train slid through a 7 car down platform, the driver changed ends to make a wrong direction movement (i.e., in the up direction) to return to the platform and the SDO thought the train was an up service and opened all 8 cars as the database showed an 8 car up platform. As a result the software was modified and PIBS installed instead.

 

[Class377/5]

Likewise at St Pancras. I think the GPS on the 377/5 that sometimes has problems with its location and agreeing with the door beacons down in the core at St Pancras, so the location has to be manually input in Mitrac.

The problems at St Pancras are not caused by GPS issues (which doesn't exist at St Pancras as its under the main station!) but by the fact the track side beacons signal to the 377/5's is weaker due to OHLE interference unique to this location (Farringdon uses GPS). A mixture of a hardware mod to the 377/5 in combination with software has reduced the impact of the interference. The input of location is done was an emergency release hence why it takes time (and can fail).

 

[pompeyfan]

oh right thanks for the answers guys, i kinda feel guilty for hijacking the topic.

i notice people say about the database using up and down services to release the doors, what would happen if a down 12 car 377 pulled in to fratton (where p2 is 10 cars and p3 is 8(?)) sorry it's so localised to my area, struggling to think of other examples.

finally are all stations southern serve on this database, for a just in case moment?

 

[pendolino]

oh right thanks for the answers guys, i kinda feel guilty for hijacking the topic.

i notice people say about the database using up and down services to release the doors, what would happen if a down 12 car 377 pulled in to fratton (where p2 is 10 cars and p3 is 8(?)) sorry it's so localised to my area, struggling to think of other examples.

finally are all stations southern serve on this database, for a just in case moment?

If there are no PIBS beacons, it should default to whatever's in the database for that location regardless of platform. Clapham Jct used to default to 12 cars so if you stopped on the slow with more than 8 (fast platforms are 12, slow 8) you had to lock out individual doors via MITRAC (this would only be during disruption - nothing more than 8 is booked to call at Clapham on the slow). PIBS has been installed now so it shoudn't require the driver to do anything, although if I were to stop on the slow with more than B I think I'd still want to check the door status screen before putting up a door release.

The database has all Southern's stations and loads of other stations not served by Southern (particualrly Southeastern - presumably it's the same database as in 375s). I'll have a look next time I log in on a 377 and see what weird and wonderful locations I can find.

 

[Southern313]

Bombardier test track cabin (or similar) I've seen

 

[pendolino]

I had a look - scrolled to the end to find there are 602 locations, including, near the bottom, Yeovil Pen Mill and Yeovil Jct. That would be quite some wrong route to take to end up there - assuming you could coast that far off the juice!

 

[W230]

The problems at St Pancras are not caused by GPS issues (which doesn't exist at St Pancras as its under the main station!) but by the fact the track side beacons signal to the 377/5's is weaker due to OHLE interference unique to this location (Farringdon uses GPS). A mixture of a hardware mod to the 377/5 in combination with software has reduced the impact of the interference. The input of location is done was an emergency release hence why it takes time (and can fail).

Ahh ok this makes sense. I was told it was a GPS issue what with it being quite a bit under the main station.

I'm assuming Fraingdon can use GPS as it's not really underground there? (certainly not lke St Pancras LL anyway!)

 

[6Gman]

To get back on-topic am I right in thinking that any new station served by 350s would have to be 4 coaches in length (or pretty damn close c.f. Winsford)?

 

[Class377/5]

Ahh ok this makes sense. I was told it was a GPS issue what with it being quite a bit under the main station.

I'm assuming Fraingdon can use GPS as it's not really underground there? (certainly not lke St Pancras LL anyway!)

GPS works at Farringdon as its open air at one end and not as well built on as you'd think as the other.