Class 350

[91103eastcoast]

Worse is a matter of opinion. Trains every 30 minutes and air conditioning, plus high reliability, must count for something surely?

With regards to the London to Birmingham services timed for 110mph running, are there many of those?

I think the xx49 from Euston has to be timed at 110 to allow it and the preceding Crewe service to fit into one path before the following xx00 VT to Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Worse is a matter of opinion. Trains every 30 minutes and air conditioning, plus high reliability, must count for something surely?

They did used to be operated by mainly Turbostars before Central split the services at Birmingham, so air-conditioned trains is something Liverpool-Birmingham has had for a long time now.

 

[swt_passenger]

Were the jigs made from scratch or were they based on another Desiro variant?

If they had to build another 444 body (notwithstanding the changed requirements for the cabs since they were built) the first thing they'd do is build new assembly jigs. As a competent engineering firm they will have kept the necessary drawings on file.

Hence the 'destruction' of the jigs that is often mentioned is basically irrelevant - it just alters the set up costs.

 

[fowler9]

They did used to be operated by mainly Turbostars before Central split the services at Birmingham, so air-conditioned trains is something Liverpool-Birmingham has had for a long time now.

Apart from a few services being operated by 310's way back when I struggle to think of a Liverpool to Birmingham service that wasn't air conditioned. There are now more frequent direct services but that is to make up for the fact there is no longer an hourly stopping service to Crewe or an hourly direct service to the South West and South Coast.

 

[387star]

Fitting seat back tables in the 350/2s would be a very simple improvement. The 360s are also missing them. I'm just glad the 450s have them, very useful to have somewhere to put your coffee.

Chiltern 172s have cradles you can put cups in which is a good idea

 

[The Planner]

I think the xx49 from Euston has to be timed at 110 to allow it and the preceding Crewe service to fit into one path before the following xx00 VT to Manchester.

Timed as 110 up to Northampton where it reverts back to 100mph times.

 

[Class377/5]

If they had to build another 444 body (notwithstanding the changed requirements for the cabs since they were built) the first thing they'd do is build new assembly jigs. As a competent engineering firm they will have kept the necessary drawings on file.

Hence the 'destruction' of the jigs that is often mentioned is basically irrelevant - it just alters the set up costs.

They already have a Class 444 update, the Class 380.

 

[Techniquest]

Worse is a matter of opinion. Trains every 30 minutes and air conditioning, plus high reliability, must count for something surely?

They did used to be operated by mainly Turbostars before Central split the services at Birmingham, so air-conditioned trains is something Liverpool-Birmingham has had for a long time now.

I meant in comparison to the 'good ol' days' of loco haulage out of Liverpool, but aye I didn't take the 170s into consideration in my previous post. Can't remember what it was before the 170s, 158s? 323s?

 

[fowler9]

I meant in comparison to the 'good ol' days' of loco haulage out of Liverpool, but aye I didn't take the 170s into consideration in my previous post. Can't remember what it was before the 170s, 158s? 323s?

It was never 323's, I can't recall 158's on it, before 170's it was loco hauled Mk2D's etc. or an HST. Most of the services were Inter City. You obviously can't remember Liverpool before it was downgraded to a branch off the WCML. Ha ha.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They already have a Class 444 update, the Class 380.

No, the 380 is an update of the 350s. Look at the door pattern.

 

[91103eastcoast]

Timed as 110 up to Northampton where it reverts back to 100mph times.

Thank you for the clarification. One further question: I can't seem to find any 110 services to Euston (from Birmingham) on RTT. Are they only 100mph on the return?

 

[Domh245]

No, the 380 is an update of the 350s. Look at the door pattern.

The 380 is a sort of hybrid. 23m coaches (like the 444, but with a 350 esque door pattern. If anything it is an electric 185!

 

[fowler9]

The 380 is a sort of hybrid. 23m coaches (like the 444, but with a 350 esque door pattern. If anything it is an electric 185!

Feel free to tell me I'm talking rubbish but isn't a 350 an electric 185. What is the difference. I really don't follow units.

 

[ainsworth74]

Feel free to tell me I'm talking rubbish but isn't a 350 an electric 185. What is the difference. I really don't follow units.

A class 185 has a 23m vehicle length and a 350 vehicle is 20m long. Going on vehicle length a 185 is closer to a 444 or a 380 than a it is to a 350.

 

[fowler9]

A class 185 has a 23m vehicle length and a 350 vehicle is 20m long. Going on vehicle length a 185 is closer to a 444 or a 380 than a it is to a 350.

Cheers for that mate. I thought the 185 was basically a diesel 350.

 

[louis97]

Thank you for the clarification. One further question: I can't seem to find any 110 services to Euston (from Birmingham) on RTT. Are they only 100mph on the return?

The train with the same calling pattern is timed 110mph between Northampton and London, although RTT will only show what a service is timed for at the beginning of its journey, and does not show any changes in this on route.

 

[fowler9]

I really don't care what they are timed for. If I get a train to Birmingham from Liverpool now it's a bit like getting one to Cressington.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would 185s suit SWTs for the Waterloo-Exeter services, if they were to ever go for a new build of DMUs? There must be a good chuck of the equipment above underframe level that must be common to the AC and DC versions of the Desiros

 

[bILLOO]

The train with the same calling pattern is timed 110mph between Northampton and London, although RTT will only show what a service is timed for at the beginning of its journey, and does not show any changes in this on route.

Is the Leighton Buzzard express timed for 100 or 110 on the fasts?

 

[Monty]

Would 185s suit SWTs for the Waterloo-Exeter services, if they were to ever go for a new build of DMUs? There must be a good chuck of the equipment above underframe level that must be common to the AC and DC versions of the Desiros

Overkill for SWT's non electrified lines, the 185s are a bit of a bespoke design for the TransPennine routes with hill climbing in mind. True you can shut down redundant engines when not required but it makes little sense to lug around extra power units you will rarely use. So apart from a forced cascade (which I imagine the North will go potty over and rightly so) I doubt it would be considered as a new build option as it's just not suitable. Siemens may offer another 'Desiro' derived designed if a tender was ever announced but I suspect it would differ from the 185s significantly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It was never 323's, I can't recall 158's on it, before 170's it was loco hauled Mk2D's etc. or an HST. Most of the services were Inter City. You obviously can't remember Liverpool before it was downgraded to a branch off the WCML. Ha ha.

Yes there were 323s - before Central joined the Liverpool and Stansted services and went diesel throughout.
2+3 323s on Birmingham-Liverpool were definitely downmarket (but then they also used 310s on Birmingham-Manchester for a while).
2+3 350/2s aren't much better, but 350/1 are as good as anything previous and can do 110mph if they want.

The trouble with the current service is the hanging around at Crewe southbound, only to get caught up in congestion later.
One service is turned slow line at Wavertree and back at Speke just to avoid Allerton Jn, and the other is now timed to use the slow line (at least now 100mph) between Crewe and Stafford.
And (compared to the Manchester run) they stop at Penkridge and Coseley or Galton Bridge.
These trains invariably lose time in the West Midlands, but have time to kill north of Stafford.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes there were 323s - before Central joined the Liverpool and Stansted services and went diesel throughout.
2+3 323s on Birmingham-Liverpool were definitely downmarket (but then they also used 310s on Birmingham-Manchester for a while).
2+3 350/2s aren't much better, but 350/1 are as good as anything previous and can do 110mph if they want.

While 323s did appear on Liverpool-Birmingham services it wasn't all that common as if an hourly 323 operated between Liverpool-Birmingham then they wouldn't be enough 323s to cover the local electrified routes around Birmingham.

Also Liverpool-Birmingham was half-hourly when hourly Liverpool-Stansted Airport services operate.

 

[91103eastcoast]

Is the Leighton Buzzard express timed for 100 or 110 on the fasts?

Realtimetrains suggests that it is timed for 100mph max.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Realtimetrains suggests that it is timed for 100mph max.

Indeed, but they can and do do 110mph if needed - I've tracked it.

 

[Muzer]

Would 185s suit SWTs for the Waterloo-Exeter services, if they were to ever go for a new build of DMUs? There must be a good chuck of the equipment above underframe level that must be common to the AC and DC versions of the Desiros

185s are too overkill as Monty said, and they have no gangways (admittedly there is precedent for using units without gangways - they briefly used Turbostars - but they soon got rid of them, and they certainly make a difference on these routes due to the proliferation of guards and refreshment trolleys, as well as trains that divide).

 

[jopsuk]

I guess if SWT had wanted to, and had been able to put together a business case for it, they could have got Siemens to build a diesel Desiro with gangways and less meaty engines- even, a diesel Desiro using the 444 bodies. But they didn't, and have a superbly reliable 159 and 158 fleet.

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess if SWT had wanted to, and had been able to put together a business case for it, they could have got Siemens to build a diesel Desiro with gangways and less meaty engines- even, a diesel Desiro using the 444 bodies. But they didn't, and have a superbly reliable 159 and 158 fleet.

Perhaps someone has even 'read the runes' and worked out that the line will be electrified just as the 158/159 fleet gets to life expiry...

If I was SWT that's what I'd be banking on...

 

[91103eastcoast]

Indeed, but they can and do do 110mph if needed - I've tracked it.

That's good to see - it (in theory) could easily turn a late departure from Euston into an on-time arrival at Leighton Buzzard.

 

[Nym]

provided it was being operated with 350/1 units only...

 

[Blindtraveler]

So if the XX:49 EUS>BHM is timed for 110 to Northampton, which service from BHM runs at 110 on the way to EUS? Also are all the Trent Valley workings to/From CRE booked 110? Just wondering as yet to sample one of these and want to at some point. I agree though that the public most certainly do notice the qualitty or lack of, of the stock they travel on, q endless moans when 185s first started going to Scotland. ↲