Class 350/1 refurbishment

[185]

..... I don't think the /2s are hated either, and while they do have 3+2 seating they aren't that bad off-peak as the legroom in the facing bays is excellent and the bays are popular with families and groups - 3+2 is no issue if the middle seat passenger is a 10-year-old or something...

Whilst there are worse units on the network, from what I see on twitter, the key passenger complaint is the lack of tables, seatback trays and space between seats - that extra 1.5 armrests space per seat makes the difference it seems. No matter what false promise is given about certain units (ie 350/2) only being used on a Tring stopper or an all stops Wolverhampton-Birmingham local - in reality due to maintenance they end up with the 350/2 rocking around at 110mph doing a 3-hour journey up the WCML ..whilst the comfortable spacious 350/1s and /3s end up working the 30mph Tipton trundler - or they'd stick one on the Marston Vale if that were physically possible.

 

[pt_mad]

Class 700s have vertical sidewalls and cameras. All Electrostars (near enough) have plug doors and cameras. So I'm guessing it is possible.

Aye, but most DCO stock I can think of that have vertical sides have doors which slide into the body shell, i.e. they don't open outwards. Such as the 700 and 800.
Electrostars have that contoured bodyside afaik? The width of the train is narrower at the top than the base, such as the class 380 which was the Siemens DCO capable Desiro. The overground DOO Turbostars also were narrower at the top than the base.

Is there an example of a boxy type train with vertical sides and doors which open outwards which has the cameras?

Come to mention it, is there even an example of an EMU or DMU where cameras have even been retrofitted years after manufacture?

The only logical reason I can think of why Siemens manufactured the 380 with a contoured bodyside is so DCO cameras could be fitted within dimensions? Pure guesswork but would there be another logical reason?

 

[js1000]

Yep, best units ever on WCML. The 317s were a step change on the 310s with sliding doors and the acceleration to keep to an EBW schedule. The 321s were solid and reliable. But the 350s are again a massive improvement. It was a surprise to me that the winning franchise included fleet replacement.

The lease costs on the 350s are extortionate aren't they? TPE are so keen to get rid of them they'll happily take loco-hauled units which are quicker to manufacture than multiple units.

 

[RealTrains07]

Aventras hmmm...Cheaper to buy, cheaper they look, cheaper the materials used that usually how the world works isnt it?

Well the cost is the only reason that makes sense for 350/2 replacement as i have heard from someone on another LNR thread that they are too slow compared to the /1 and /3s which is wrong since they are have 110mph capability since dec last year as i remember?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The lease costs on the 350s are extortionate aren't they?

Only /2s.

TPE are so keen to get rid of them they'll happily take loco-hauled units which are quicker to manufacture than multiple units.

TPE have no /2s, but even if they did the LHCS is diesel-powered so is of no relevance to Class 350s, it's a capacity build for TPE's non-electrified routes.

The WCML EMUs are for a capacity uplift, primarily.

 

[700007]

Aventras hmmm...Cheaper to buy, cheaper they look, cheaper the materials used that usually how the world works isnt it?

Well the cost is the only reason that makes sense for 350/2 replacement as i have heard from someone on another LNR thread that they are too slow compared to the /1 and /3s which is wrong since they are have 110mph capability since dec last year as i remember?

350/2s have been uprated to 110mph. They're being dumped not because they're not brilliant trains but because the ROSCO is not giving them away for a reasonable price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only logical reason I can think of why Siemens manufactured the 380 with a contoured bodyside is so DCO cameras could be fitted within dimensions? Pure guesswork but would there be another logical reason?

I don't entirely know, but if the Class 700 has the same size and shape of bodyshell as the 350 (which it does), and has DOO cameras, I can't see much of a difference. I don't see that plug doors would really change a lot, as the main thing the cameras are for is seeing that they are properly closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

350/2s have been uprated to 110mph. They're being dumped not because they're not brilliant trains but because the ROSCO is not giving them away for a reasonable price.

And they have a lot to live up to.

Personally, I'd have been more than happy with their bid bringing in the full set of Class 360s and sticking with a 100% Desiro railway south of Northampton (did anyone bid that?). They really are well-liked and well-built. The Aventras are going to have a lot to live up to - if they're like Southern Electrostar rattletraps (however nice the seating layout might be) we will not be impressed.

 

[43096]

And they have a lot to live up to.

Personally, I'd have been more than happy with their bid bringing in the full set of Class 360s and sticking with a 100% Desiro railway south of Northampton (did anyone bid that?). They really are well-liked and well-built. The Aventras are going to have a lot to live up to - if they're like Southern Electrostar rattletraps (however nice the seating layout might be) we will not be impressed.

It would have made far more sense to standardise the fleets in this way - and would probably have been better capacity wise as bringing in all the 360s (i.e. including the Heathrow ones) would have given 252 vehicles rather than the 225 of the Aventras.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't entirely know, but if the Class 700 has the same size and shape of bodyshell as the 350 (which it does), and has DOO cameras, I can't see much of a difference. I don't see that plug doors would really change a lot, as the main thing the cameras are for is seeing that they are properly closed.

Only they’re not. They are also for checking the doors are clear before closing them.

 

[Spirit555]

350106 went to Long Marston yesterday. Possibly for corrosion work. Don't think they are doing the refurb work. I would imagine that will be done "In House" by Siemens.

Unless someone knows otherwise

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only they’re not. They are also for checking the doors are clear before closing them.

In any case they are quite wide-angle. The attached is a slightly odd photo of my lounge wall using my mobile phone camera, taken with the phone held against the wall (so with the lens about 1.5" from the wall), you even get to see some washing, lucky you . My hand is roughly the distance from the wall that a plug door would be, but much closer to the camera than such a door (only about a foot from the camera, whereas on a 350 it would be over a metre if the camera was at the cab end, and about 3-5m if the other end). You can still see "along the bodyside" quite well.

Now replace it with a professional quality camera intended for the purpose (rather than a mobile phone) and the door a lot further away than my hand, and you can see there won't be a great issue.

 

[aleggatta]

Only they’re not. They are also for checking the doors are clear before closing them.

generally, the area that would not be seen in this circumstance would not be worried about, there are hustle alarms to warn people of closing doors and safety edges to re-open upon a closing door closing on someone/thing, so the cameras would generally only be used to prove clear after doors closed.

 

[700007]

And they have a lot to live up to.

Personally, I'd have been more than happy with their bid bringing in the full set of Class 360s and sticking with a 100% Desiro railway south of Northampton (did anyone bid that?). They really are well-liked and well-built. The Aventras are going to have a lot to live up to - if they're like Southern Electrostar rattletraps (however nice the seating layout might be) we will not be impressed.

I completely agree with you. They brilliantly match the work they do, they're fast, comfortable and reliable units. Some of the best in this country and absolutely loved commuting on them when I lived on London Midland's (at the time) patch. The 360s should have been brought to replace the 323s, do Abbey line and as top up on the West Coast in my opinion. The 360/2s could even replace the current 319 peak time diagrams with 4 in use and 1 spare (but expect a lot of short forms! ) however the low mileage of those diagrams compared to the other trains should be enough for them to cope without coking out.

Time to put the Crayola away...

 

[whhistle]

The 360s should have been brought to replace the 323s.

Interesting that the numbers match too!
Although wouldn't be any scope for capacity increases.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm surprised by the DCO stuff. Didnt the 360 have to lose the gangway in the cab because of visibility in DOO mode? I'd be surprised if the 350 didn't have the same issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised by the DCO stuff. Didnt the 360 have to lose the gangway in the cab because of visibility in DOO mode? I'd be surprised if the 350 didn't have the same issue?

That was DOO using mirrors/monitors, not cameras. The visibility issue doesn't occur with cameras as everything that's different for DOO is inside the cab.

 

[RailWonderer]

And they have a lot to live up to.

Personally, I'd have been more than happy with their bid bringing in the full set of Class 360s and sticking with a 100% Desiro railway south of Northampton (did anyone bid that?). They really are well-liked and well-built. The Aventras are going to have a lot to live up to - if they're like Southern Electrostar rattletraps (however nice the seating layout might be) we will not be impressed.

GA will need their 360s for at least the next two years or more since the 720s are delayed by at least 18 months.

The 360s should have been brought to replace the 323s, do Abbey line and as top up on the West Coast in my opinion. The 360/2s could even replace the current 319 peak time diagrams with 4 in use and 1 spare

The 360/2 trains are directly owned by Heathrow Airport and not a ROSCO so LNWR could not lease them, they would have to buy them outright and no ToC would want to do that for a micro fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 360/2 trains are directly owned by Heathrow Airport and not a ROSCO so LNWR could not lease them, they would have to buy them outright and no ToC would want to do that for a micro fleet.

If they wished to lease them I am sure a ROSCO would purchase them on their behalf.

They are not a microfleet, they are bog-standard Desiros, basically identical to the Great Eastern ones other than having no 1st and an extra coach.

 

[RailWonderer]

They are not a microfleet

If 5 units isn't micro, what is?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So silly to replace the 350s. They are fast, reliable, comfortable and give a pleasant ambiance. They are modern and unlike the Voyagers and my beloved Pendolinos they don’t divide opinion - most people like them. When they receive 350/4s, this would give them an 87 strong fleet were they not chucking away the dash twos. I think replacement is totally unnecessary. Maybe stick some seat back tables on the dash twos and upgrade dash 1-3 first class to the standard of dash 4s and they make a strong and ideal fleet!

 

[RailWonderer]

They work separately to the GA 360s and will for the foreseeable future and are owned by different firms. Potentially they could be united but railway bosses generally lack such creativity of thought.

 

[RealTrains07]

GA will need their 360s for at least the next two years or more since the 720s are delayed by at least 18 months.

The 360/2 trains are directly owned by Heathrow Airport and not a ROSCO so LNWR could not lease them, they would have to buy them outright and no ToC would want to do that for a micro fleet.

Not anymore, 360/2 are meant to be going;

First run the heathrow express services replacing the trains currently on it with electrostars.

Crossrail replaces heathrow connect. Once the 345s are in, no more 360/2 their either.

 

[43096]

Interesting that the numbers match too!
Although wouldn't be any scope for capacity increases.

Would there not be platform length issues with 8x20m in place of 6x23m where pairs operate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If 5 units isn't micro, what is?

Isn't a microfleet more about a small fleet of dissimilar units? 360s are standard Desiros. The 230s are a classic microfleet, as are the 319s.

 

[RealTrains07]

Isn't a microfleet more about a small fleet of dissimilar units? 360s are standard Desiros. The 230s are a classic microfleet, as are the 319s.

How are the 319s a micro fleet?

 

[cjmillsnun]

If 5 units isn't micro, what is?

Aside from the cabs, most of the equipment is the same as 350/450/444. They are bog standard Desiro UK Electrics. Of which there are 285 units. That is no microfleet. This makes them ideal to go to LNWR as they should be able to work in multiple with the 350s (software depending) if required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How are the 319s a micro fleet?

They are for LNR, as LNR only have a few of them. Though more than they used to have, so it's heading away from a microfleet.

 

[RailWonderer]

No need to be pedantic just for the sake of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No need to be pedantic just for the sake of it.

Eh? The other poster asked why they were a microfleet, so I answered.