Class 345 progress

[700007]

What is worrying is whilst understanding that these trains are new, Bombardier has 65 (until the order is officially confirmed for 70) units to deliver to a £15bn taxpayer funded railway for December. Deliveries have been fairly slow, with several issues, the fleet being grounded twice now, the planned introduction of these trains and the roll out of Crossrail is being altered and at risk of being delayed.

Imagine that the Elizabeth line is actually delayed and not in time for the Queen to open it how red faced TfL officials will be!

 

[samuelmorris]

December 2019 is when they'll need the 70 units, surely?

 

[700007]

Yes indeed but surely there will be a very high demand for several units by the end of this year - I can't quote an exact number - but significantly more than 13!

 

[6Gman]

Can anyone confirm if 345024 (at Crewe today) is fully-formed? Or are there further coaches to be added?

 

[Aventra]

Can anyone confirm if 345024 (at Crewe today) is fully-formed? Or are there further coaches to be added?

I can confirm 024 is fully formed. There’s only 022 in the 20’s that is short formed. Everything else will now be FLU’s.
Yes it is AWS/TPWS issues which were encountered on one unit.
To be fair to the units, they are running 3 signalling systems and not just the one which is being run by other new fleets, 700’s, 707’s etc. This is the first time this has been done. Comparing them to other new units is a bit unfair when you consider the complexity involved in this.

 

[dp21]

As a future customer I'm keen to see these things succeed, I just think due to the high profile of the crossrail project and the 345s being the pilot for a brand new product, they're attracting more attention.

I would be interested to know what the issues are/were with the AWS/TPWS as the seem to have been running around just fine (in that department) for the last few months!

 

[AM9]

I can confirm 024 is fully formed. There’s only 022 in the 20’s that is short formed. Everything else will now be FLU’s.
Yes it is AWS/TPWS issues which were encountered on one unit.
To be fair to the units, they are running 3 signalling systems and not just the one which is being run by other new fleets, 700’s, 707’s etc. This is the first time this has been done. Comparing them to other new units is a bit unfair when you consider the complexity involved in this.

The class 700s are running a full TL SERVICE, with TPWS and the first full implementation of ETCS - with ATO required on all trains by the end of next year, on DC/ac infrastructure and mixed in with other train types via flat junctions. That is every bit of as much a challenge as the 345s which are struggling with TPWS on the GEML running not much more than a preview service on exclusive tracks.

 

[samuelmorris]

How times change when 700s are viewed as the success story! 700s had a pretty troubled introduction too, I'd estimate it at having taken about 12-15 months for them to stop being a liability in terms of punctuality compared to their predecessors, things seemed to stabilise around the Autumn last year. By that notion, it'd be the end of the summer before we could expect the same of the 345s, which are broadly similar in terms of being the first iteration of a new platform. The difference being that with the 700s, almost all the tests as far as route compatibility were concerned came at once, with the 345s it's a more gradual introduction. They've got another 8 months or so to get running through the core on them understood now that they've actually started running there, which should theoretically be enough, barring any issues coming about from it actually being new railway rather than just new stock. I also think it should be a non-issue to get the requisite 15-16 sets in service to run Paddington - Abbey Wood at 12tph by the end of the year. The question is whether they can get enough units at a high enough MTIN figure to actually deliver a reasonable service. That remains to be seen!

 

[Domh245]

The class 700s are running a full TL SERVICE, with TPWS and the first full implementation of ETCS - with ATO required on all trains by the end of next year, on DC/ac infrastructure and mixed in with other train types via flat junctions. That is every bit of as much a challenge as the 345s which are struggling with TPWS on the GEML running not much more than a preview service on exclusive tracks.

I fail to see the relevance of operating on lines alongside other trains? I would also point out that the first 700 started dynamic testing around March/April 2014, with first passenger train entering service in June 2016 some two years later. The 345s on the other hand started dynamic testing at the end of July 2016, with the first train into service in June 2017, just under a year later. If you want to be nitpicky, you could note that the first 700 was delivered to the UK at the end of July 2015, which means that they spent as long in the UK doing testing and fault free mileage as the 345 had in total from first train running on the loop at Litchurch Lane to entering service. It's amazing how much easier things are when you've got twice as long to do it.

 

[SPADTrap]

I can confirm 024 is fully formed. There’s only 022 in the 20’s that is short formed. Everything else will now be FLU’s.
Yes it is AWS/TPWS issues which were encountered on one unit.
To be fair to the units, they are running 3 signalling systems and not just the one which is being run by other new fleets, 700’s, 707’s etc. This is the first time this has been done. Comparing them to other new units is a bit unfair when you consider the complexity involved in this.

AWS/TPWS isn't new though. I wonder what it is they're trying to do with it that the units don't like. The other two systems aren't in use yet are they? Doesn't bode well!

 

[Aventra]

AWS/TPWS isn't new though. I wonder what it is they're trying to do with it that the units don't like. The other two systems aren't in use yet are they? Doesn't bode well!

It’s not your traditional TPWS cab unit. It’s built into the screens in the cab so it’s all computer generated with software, along with the CBTC & ETCS. The old modules wouldn’t have this issue as they were just stand alone.

 

[AM9]

It’s not your traditional TPWS cab unit. It’s built into the screens in the cab so it’s all computer generated with software, along with the CBTC & ETCS. The old modules wouldn’t have this issue as they were just stand alone.

So that implies that for Bombardier at least, integrating an established subsystem into their display system is a struggle for them. That shows a lack of system level competency, either at the specification level, supplier management or integration and testing. It's not as if the greater Bombardier organisation doesn't have such experience, - they practice it all the time in avionics, and in a very cost sensitive environment. Maybe it's the old BR Derby works still dragging itself out of the '80s.

 

[AM9]

I fail to see the relevance of operating on lines alongside other trains? I would also point out that the first 700 started dynamic testing around March/April 2014, with first passenger train entering service in June 2016 some two years later. The 345s on the other hand started dynamic testing at the end of July 2016, with the first train into service in June 2017, just under a year later. If you want to be nitpicky, you could note that the first 700 was delivered to the UK at the end of July 2015, which means that they spent as long in the UK doing testing and fault free mileage as the 345 had in total from first train running on the loop at Litchurch Lane to entering service. It's amazing how much easier things are when you've got twice as long to do it.

The main difference was that the class700s were running on the main line. It seems that the 345s are kept in sidings with only a couple running on very limited preview services and as soon as a problem occurs, they are all squirrelled back to stabling areas leaving the (thankfully) still largely intact class315s to soldier on providing the service.

 

[samuelmorris]

Although increasingly less intact judging by the fires etc. That's barely acceptable now, but once the core opens, mass withdrawal of the 345s will result in no service at all in that area, so would not be taken lightly.

 

[700007]

That said, what unit(s) were involved in yesterday's incident? I heard the fire was incredibly small and was extinguished quickly but there was a bit of smoke.

I still prefer a 315 or 700 to a 345 - but that said the decisions to withdraw them now aren't being taken lightly either. However it is a major safety issue from what has been reported on this forum so it is just the fear that this could occur when the core is in operation. Because these issues regardless of the service they work would still have to be grounded no matter how high profile.

It is just a concern that I am having at the moment.

 

[mrmartin]

What concerns me is were not even at the most risky part of this rollout, which is running a train from NR to the core and back again, with all of the signalling and safety switchover that will require. This was the reason a lot of 700s failed if I remember correctly. We are struggling to see the train work properly on two simple metro shuttles.

 

[Cosmicismsx]

What is worrying is whilst understanding that these trains are new, Bombardier has 65 (until the order is officially confirmed for 70) units to deliver to a £15bn taxpayer funded railway for December. Deliveries have been fairly slow, with several issues, the fleet being grounded twice now, the planned introduction of these trains and the roll out of Crossrail is being altered and at risk of being delayed.

Imagine that the Elizabeth line is actually delayed and not in time for the Queen to open it how red faced TfL officials will be!

that is the risk TfL took when they demanded Crossrail be a part of their network, as opposed to Network Rail track!

 

[rebmcr]

What concerns me is were not even at the most risky part of this rollout, which is running a train from NR to the core and back again, with all of the signalling and safety switchover that will require. This was the reason a lot of 700s failed if I remember correctly. We are struggling to see the train work properly on two simple metro shuttles.

Probably a major factor in the Dec '18 service pattern. Note the only switchover there is the Heathrow one, and it's already flagged as a risk.

 

[Peter Sarf]

According to rtt all the 345 core tunnel testing is happening overnight, is there any reason why this is not happening during socialable hours given the tracks are completely segregated and the tunnel is not in public use,

Its probably to avoid people seeing and photographing the tests in daylight .

I'll get my coat !.

 

[matthewmacleod]

Relieved to see that 2C47 was a 345 this morning (006) but I didn’t see a single other unit in service.

 

[samuelmorris]

006 spotted at Liverpool Street but another unit just went past me in the London bound direction empty, not sure if in service or just testing though.

2W48 also a 345 in service.

 

[plcd1]

What concerns me is were not even at the most risky part of this rollout, which is running a train from NR to the core and back again, with all of the signalling and safety switchover that will require. This was the reason a lot of 700s failed if I remember correctly. We are struggling to see the train work properly on two simple metro shuttles.

AIUI trains will run through both the western and eastern signalling transition points on ECS workings when the core opens. While nowhere near as intensive as a scheduled service trains still have to work properly and safely to / from OOC and Ilford depots from December this year. Therefore there has to be pressure to get the 345s to cope with all of the signalling systems and transition points. I suspect that is strongly focussing minds along with getting the rolling stock "debugged" and building in service reliability.

 

[matt_world2004]

AIUI trains will run through both the western and eastern signalling transition points on ECS workings when the core opens. While nowhere near as intensive as a scheduled service trains still have to work properly and safely to / from OOC and Ilford depots from December this year. Therefore there has to be pressure to get the 345s to cope with all of the signalling systems and transition points. I suspect that is strongly focussing minds along with getting the rolling stock "debugged" and building in service reliability.

I believe the trains can remain segregated from the GwR all the way from ooc could be wrong though.

 

[plcd1]

I believe the trains can remain segregated from the GwR all the way from ooc could be wrong though.

I think you are correct. However I don't think TBTC from the core stretches all the way to OOC so therefore there must be a transition point between signalling systems. I believe the turnback sidings at Westbourne Park are within the TBTC area so terminating trains won't transition on each trip. Anyway we're straying a bit from rolling stock progress.

 

[rebmcr]

I think you are correct. However I don't think TBTC from the core stretches all the way to OOC so therefore there must be a transition point between signalling systems. I believe the turnback sidings at Westbourne Park are within the TBTC area so terminating trains won't transition on each trip. Anyway we're straying a bit from rolling stock progress.

The sidings have to be in the TBTC area, as they offer driverless turnback.

 

[hwl]

The sidings have to be in the TBTC area, as they offer driverless turnback.

The transition is on the running lines alongside the turnback sidings, the sidings are completely inside the TBTC area.

 

[absolutelymilk]

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/973889306107490304

Crossrail expects Bombardier to start testing Class 345 automatic train operation in tunnels on March 25. It follows February 25's first train into tunnels at Plumstead.

According to Philip Haigh, ATO testing will begin Sunday week, so only one month from the beginning of testing to ATO - this seems very quick to me? Presumably testing has gone well so far then.

 

[sd0733]

Just passed a 345 presumably 345024 heading South through Tamworth on the up fast. Looks quite impressive at 90mph!
It' working This http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P80412/2018/03/14/advanced

 

[hwl]

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/973889306107490304

According to Philip Haigh, ATO testing will begin Sunday week, so only one month from the beginning of testing to ATO - this seems very quick to me? Presumably testing has gone well so far then.

The Siemens CBTC (TrainGuard MT) system was designed for ATO (and UTO) as the default mode and the 345s have been extensively tested on the test track with the Siemens CBTC system, it isn't surprising that testing should progress to the ATO stage quickly provided it has been installed in the tunnels correctly if there aren't "surprises" to iron out.

 

[gwr4090]

The transition is on the running lines alongside the turnback sidings, the sidings are completely inside the TBTC area.

The ETCS west of here has apparently been deferred so the transition will presumably be CBTC to conventional TPWS operation which is less risky ?