Class 331/1 reconfiguration

[Philip]

Could the twelve 4-coach 331s be reformed, so that 6 of them run in 6-coach formation and the other 6 as 2-coach units?

The reformed 6-coach 331s could then cover Blackpool diagrams, with the remaining 3 or 4 diagrams covered by 3-coach 331s running in multiple, basically so that all services are formed of 6 coaches instead of the mish-mash of 3, 4 & 6 coaches at present (and the subsequent overcrowding)?

The reformed 2-coach units could run in multiple with each other to make 4 coaches, and this would be enough to at least cover 2 Crewe or Stoke diagrams.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could the twelve 4-coach 331s be reformed, so that 6 of them run in 6-coach formation and the other 6 as 2-coach units?

The reformed 6-coach 331s could then cover Blackpool diagrams, with the remaining 3 or 4 diagrams covered by 3-coach 331s running in multiple, basically so that all services are formed of 6 coaches instead of the mish-mash of 3, 4 & 6 coaches at present (and the subsequent overcrowding)?

The reformed 2-coach units could run in multiple with each other to make 4 coaches, and this would be enough to at least cover 2 Crewe or Stoke diagrams.

No pantograph on the driving cars, so no. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here.

 

[Philip]

No pantograph on the driving cars, so no. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here.

Could the pantograph not be moved to the driving car? The problem trying to be solved is that some 4-coach 331s have started appearing on Blackpool services, these are unsuitable now as even the 6-coach formations are often busy and it's an unacceptable big drop in capacity.

 

[Neptune]

No pantograph on the driving cars, so no. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here.

Yes, as ‘great ideas’ go this is probably one of those that needed a photograph looking at prior to typing.

 

[Philip]

No pantograph on the driving cars, so no. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here.

Could the pantograph not be moved to the driving car on the units which become 2-car sets? The problem trying to be solved is that some 4-coach 331s have started appearing on Blackpool services, these are unsuitable now as even the 6-coach formations are often busy, and it's an unacceptable big drop in capacity.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could the pantograph not be moved to the driving car on the units which become 2-car sets? The problem trying to be solved is that some 4-coach 331s have started appearing on Blackpool services, these are unsuitable now as even the 6-coach formations are often busy, and it's an unacceptable big drop in capacity.

In theory it could... however this would be expensive and difficult from an engineering perspective. In removing and replacing part of the roof with a pantograph well, you'd weaken the structural strength of the bodyshell which would need reinforcing as a result.

As I posted earlier, it isn't clear what problem you're hoping to solve with this proposal and whether this would be the best way to solve that problem. You state that six car formations are busy enough, so reducing to four cars is "an unacceptable big drop in capacity". If this is the case, then surely returning to the 2x3 formations is the way to go. Had the 331s been supplied in 2-car and 4-car formations, there would inevitably be occasions where the 4-car unit developed a fault so the formation would only be 2 cars. It seems obvious to me that a reduction of 50% is less bad than a reduction of 66%.

 

[43096]

Could the pantograph not be moved to the driving car on the units which become 2-car sets? The problem trying to be solved is that some 4-coach 331s have started appearing on Blackpool services, these are unsuitable now as even the 6-coach formations are often busy, and it's an unacceptable big drop in capacity.

Whereabouts is the transformer on a 331? And the compressor… and, and, and…

Why do you persist with ideas when they’ve already been debunked? I know this is the speculative discussion section, but continuing to speculate over something that isn’t feasible is utterly pointless.

 

[D365]

Whereabouts is the transformer on a 331? And the compressor… and, and, and…

Why do you persist with ideas when they’ve already been debunked? I know this is the speculative discussion section, but continuing to speculate over something that isn’t feasible is utterly pointless.

Welcome to the life of a rolling stock consultant!

 

[Philip]

In theory it could... however this would be expensive and difficult from an engineering perspective. In removing and replacing part of the roof with a pantograph well, you'd weaken the structural strength of the bodyshell which would need reinforcing as a result.

As I posted earlier, it isn't clear what problem you're hoping to solve with this proposal and whether this would be the best way to solve that problem. You state that six car formations are busy enough, so reducing to four cars is "an unacceptable big drop in capacity". If this is the case, then surely returning to the 2x3 formations is the way to go. Had the 331s been supplied in 2-car and 4-car formations, there would inevitably be occasions where the 4-car unit developed a fault so the formation would only be 2 cars. It seems obvious to me that a reduction of 50% is less bad than a reduction of 66%.

Whereabouts is the transformer on a 331? And the compressor… and, and, and…

Why do you persist with ideas when they’ve already been debunked? I know this is the speculative discussion section, but continuing to speculate over something that isn’t feasible is utterly pointless.

The problem needs addressing though, which is that some Manchester-Blackpool services have gone from 6 coaches to 4, which isn't enough. The last I read is that there won't be enough 3-car sets to allow for 6-car formations once the west-east stock shuffling is complete.

Is 8-car running (2 x 331/s) feasible instead for this route? I know some platforms aren't long enough but this can be dealt with by locking the relevant doors out of use and asking passengers to move forward just before the train arrives at the station.

 

[JohnElliott]

I keep misreading the subject of this thread as "Class 33/1 reconfiguration" and thinking it's about 27-way cables...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the twelve 4-coach 331s be reformed, so that 6 of them run in 6-coach formation and the other 6 as 2-coach units?

No. UK EMUs are typically minimum 3 car because the pantograph/transformer takes up a fair whack of space on the middle coach.

 

[43096]

The problem needs addressing though, which is that some Manchester-Blackpool services have gone from 6 coaches to 4, which isn't enough. The last I read is that there won't be enough 3-car sets to allow for 6-car formations once the west-east stock shuffling is complete.

Is 8-car running (2 x 331/s) feasible instead for this route? I know some platforms aren't long enough but this can be dealt with by locking the relevant doors out of use and asking passengers to move forward just before the train arrives at the station.

Isn't it a temporray thing until the additional 323s arrive from West Mids? The issue is that the 319s are going and until the 323s arrive, Northern are having to shuffle things around, which is why there is the transfer across the pennines so that the pain is spread around.

Whatever, if you start playing with forming up 6-cars and 2-cars you still solve nothing as there's no extra vehicles until the 323s arrive. You might want the Blackpools as 6-car, but to do that means somewhere else misses out, probably with cancellations.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No. UK EMUs are typically minimum 3 car because the pantograph/transformer takes up a fair whack of space on the middle coach.

Isn't it more that any route which only requires two coaches was generally considered uneconomical to electrify? AFAIK the only 2-car AC EMUs produced in the UK were (some of) the 309s, which were produced that way in order to make ten coach formations. Of course these units were later extended to four cars using donated hauled stock.

 

[6Gman]

The problem needs addressing though, which is that some Manchester-Blackpool services have gone from 6 coaches to 4, which isn't enough. The last I read is that there won't be enough 3-car sets to allow for 6-car formations once the west-east stock shuffling is complete.

Is 8-car running (2 x 331/s) feasible instead for this route? I know some platforms aren't long enough but this can be dealt with by locking the relevant doors out of use and asking passengers to move forward just before the train arrives at the station.

But you've still only got the same 48 coaches to go round and for several months you'll have fewer because units will be away for rebuilding!