Class 323 v Class 331 through Chorley

[mikeparker391]

I'm interested in the loss of many of our Class 331 units in the past year which have been replaced by older, inferior, Class 323 units which have been poorly refurbished, have reduced space standards and almost inaudible announcement systems.
We waited patiently in Chorley for the electrification scheme to be realised and put up with bridges being closed to facilitate roads being raised.
When, on completion, the Class 331 stock was then introduced it felt as though the wait had been worth it. However, for these now to have been taken away from us feels most unfair.

Does anyone know the reason for this decision?

 

[Bayum]

Well, for starters there has been the set swaps with some of the 3 car sets coming to us in West Yorkshire and the 4 cars over to you… Northern have received the surplus 323s left over from WMT now they have their new shiny trains… might just be making use of the stock they have?

 

[bluenoxid]

I’ve not followed the story closely

There has been a stock cascade within Northern that has shifted 3 carriage 331 trains to lines running out of Leeds and 4 carriage trains to the north west. I understand that this has not been an equal number of trains and that cascaded 323s from the West Midlands have been brought in. I’m not very close to the numbers

They are likely to have not cascaded the 323s because it would have created two smaller fleets for Northern to manage with train crew and depot staff requiring a lot of support/training in the Leeds area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

323s have far more seats than 331s on what are very busy trains, so while the comfort isn't as good at least more people can sit down, and anecdotally up north people do seem willing to squash up in 3+2 layouts unlike many parts of the south?

 

[Fokx]

In addition to what the other posters have mentioned in regards to set swaps from the North West to the East and vice versa, the 331 fleet can also be used on routes with short platforms when in multiple whereas the 323 fleet don't have that facility.

Stations on the Blackpool to Man Airport fully accommodate 2x 323's without the need for locking out doors or entire units manually, Making it the perfect route for 323's to operate on.

The routes which have gained 331's recently have short platforms such as Liverpool to Airport and Leeds to Bradford FS/Skipton/Ilkley and require ASDO to increase capacity or platform extensions when operated in multiple.

 

[mcnw35282]

Northern have finally got the message and are running 6 car trains between Liverpool and Manchester Airport. Although reinstating the 2nd train per hour would be preferable...a longer train will do for the time being

 

[thealexweb]

Northern was very clear from the start that six car 331s on the west side was never permanent.

I for one massively support six car 323 diagrams. 554 seats every 30 minutes is a complete game changer.

 

[GhostManDN91]

I went for a ride on the 323s between Manchester and Chorley and back on Tuesday this week. I was impressed myself. Does the job and they have fast acceleration too. Downside is that I live in Wigan so I can't travel on them to Manchester unless I change at Bolton.

 

[Adam0984]

It's a downgrade in terms of you've lost your tables but an upgrade that you've got more seats to sit on rather than standing up because the train has tables instead of a few extra seats

 

[Kite159]

It's also a downgrade losing all sort of tables (both full sized and seat back tables) to gain suburban 3+2 seating and the loss of Air Conditioning.

But still the commuters of Bolton are happy they have more seats, even if for the likes of Chorley is a large downgrade

 

[Bertie the bus]

The 323s aren't an upgrade in any sense of the word so let's not pretend otherwise. The claimed bonus of additional seats is of use on a very small number of services between central Manchester and Bolton only. Nobody has to stand north of Bolton on a 6 car 331 and nobody has to stand on off peak services with the possible exception of the odd Saturday one. The regular use of single 3 car 323s on services because they've transferred the units to Yorkshire isn't an upgrade either.

 

[thealexweb]

The 323s aren't an upgrade in any sense of the word so let's not pretend otherwise. The claimed bonus of additional seats is of use on a very small number of services between central Manchester and Bolton only. Nobody has to stand north of Bolton on a 6 car 331 and nobody has to stand on off peak services with the possible exception of the odd Saturday one. The regular use of single 3 car 323s on services because they've transferred the units to Yorkshire isn't an upgrade either.

Please stop the comparison with six car 331s. Northern was very clear from the start that having all three car 331s on the west side was always temporary. Comparing six car 323 to three/four car 331 is the reality of what west side stock is available.

Single 331s are you’ve got standing almost all the way to Preston.

I am open to being corrected but it’s currently 50:50 booked doubled 323 to double 331 across all six diagrams. If a single of either shows up that a one-off short form.

 

[tom1649]

Be grateful you don't still have Pacers and Sprinters.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Please stop the comparison with six car 331s. Northern was very clear from the start that having all three car 331s on the west side was always temporary. Comparing six car 323 to three/four car 331 is the reality of what west side stock is available.

They have been 6 car 331s for over 5 years. Just because some company might have said it was temporary doesn't mean that wasn't the service provided. The current service is little short of abysmal with cheaply refurbed 30 year old units, often 3 car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2025 ==

I am open to being corrected but it’s currently 50:50 booked doubled 323 to double 331 across all six diagrams. If a single of either shows up that a one-off short form.

That's alright then. As long as some spreadsheet says they should be 6 car the fact at least 1 diagram per day is only 3 car is unimportant.

 

[childwallblues]

Liverpool to Manchester Airport has four diagrams and two of these switched to six car 331s at the last timetable change. However on Tuesday I noted that the 0700 Liv-MIA was only a single 3 car unit.

 

[52290]

Of course Chorley now has class 195s on the hourly Barrow/Windermere to the Airport service. Stopping only at Bolton this diesel service is the quickest way to get from Chorley to Manchester.

 

[p1ash]

Is this about expectations?

20yrs ago, I remember travelling from Chorley on a 175, which generally served the airport, thinking this was what train travel should be (when they had enough seats), but then enduring a 142, 150, on good days a 156, which served the other services that didn't go to the airport (Buxton etc.).

I then used to think that a 323 would be ideal for this line to replace the sprinters, and match what south-Manchester has.

If we reverted back to one half-hour being a 331 (185 equivalents!?) and the other half-hour being a 323 (150 equivalent), would this be so much of a problem, noting that there are not enough 331s to serve all lines?

Remember most of south-Manchester still has 323s on the Stokes & Crewe, which is roughly as far as Preston... and most of the long-distance services serve Wilmslow or Macclesfield (so should the Scotland TPEs stop at Chorley too)?

 

[Hamma52]

I rode on a 323 from Crewe to Heald Green about a month ago, and thought it was a pretty pleasant journey.
They're a little tired around the edges in places, but considering they're over 30 years old at this point, I think they still hold up very well indeed. As others said, very impressive acceleration and generally a good ride quality.

In comparison to some of the 90s era units (I'm looking at you, 320s), they're still fit for purpose.

 

[Peter0124]

I rode on a 323 from Crewe to Heald Green about a month ago, and thought it was a pretty pleasant journey.
They're a little tired around the edges in places, but considering they're over 30 years old at this point, I think they still hold up very well indeed. As others said, very impressive acceleration and generally a good ride quality.

In comparison to some of the 90s era units (I'm looking at you, 320s), they're still fit for purpose.

Is a 320 really worse than a 323? Atleast they actually have tables and shorter hopper windows!

 

[47434]

More seats is ultimately what people want and this solution helps solve that challenge. We should all applaud the growth in rail passenger numbers. Even if the much talked about 350's replace the 323's they still have 3+2 seating and no tables so little improvement other than air-con

 

[Lanley]

My usual commute is a Cl350, but when I visit my family in Lancashire, I use the Cl323. They are simply not in the same league in regards to comfort and passenger features. Using the Cl323 in the heat was almost unbearable, and all examples I have used are tired and beaten up inside. They have great sounding motors but practically, they are a downgrade. I would welcome the Cl350s on the Manchester to Blackpool circuit, and I believe that they would provide a significant step up in quality, and at least be similar to the Cl331s, which as @Bertie the bus mentions, have become the expectation over the last 5 years. People have noticed the downgrade and always ask “why have they done that?”.

 

[p1ash]

Ultimately, there's now 26 323s, 16 331-3 cars, and 11 331-4 cars in use, so in essence a 50/50 split between 323s and 331s in the North West fleet. Previously the 4-car 331s were in Yorkshire, and these have been swopped with 3-car 331s - meaning that there's now less 3-car 331 available in the North West, but does mean that there's an overall capacity uplift.

Current use allocates 8No. 331-3 cars for Blackpool, 4No. for Liverpool to Airport, and 4No. on Wigans - and that's before any brake down, so there isn't that many to go around.

Only the 331-3 cars and 323s can provide the required 6-car capacity for Blackpool trains.

The additional 323s have been part of the plan for the North-West fleet from circa 2019 - and it was the delay in these being available that meant the 319s hung around as long as they did - so this change has been a few years in the planning.

Interestingly, Northern's MD, Tricia Williams, at the last Rail North meeting, was less than transparent about the plans to replace the non-15x fleet (so the 323s etc.) - the answer was it would 'take some time', with the priority being the flat fronted diesel fleet (does that even include 158s?!)?

Northern are refurbishing the ex-West Midland 323s with new flooring, seat coverings, and a full repaint (so to match the original Northern ones). Would Northern be spending this money for a fleet that is to be replaced - so I suspect we will be with the 323s for a good while yet.

Apparently Northern are looking at leasing 2 more 323s as well, to cover overhauls / upgrades on the 331s too - so there may be more 323s around in the future too!

I still think 323s are a massive upgrade on the 150 heaps!

 

[AJDesiro]

Northern are refurbishing the ex-West Midland 323s with new flooring, seat coverings, and a full repaint (so to match the original Northern ones). Would Northern be spending this money for a fleet that is to be replaced - so I suspect we will be with the 323s for a good while yet.

That’s what TfW have done with the 150s, 158s and 175s. Despite the fact that those fleets were going to be withdrawn during the franchise (and indeed their replacements were expected to arrive within 3 years of the KeolisAmey franchise start in 2018).