Class 322's - where to next?

[klewer]

Just wondering if anyone knows what's happening with the Class 322 fleet when Scotrail have finished with them?

I was on the understanding that they're leased by NXEA, and on a sub-lease to Scotrail.

This would normally mean that they'd return to NXEA, but since the sub-lease was setup NX have received the extra 17 Class 321 units - so they may not need the 322's back.

Does anyone have any ideas? Be interesting to hear suggestions as to where they're most needed as well..

 

[lm321412]

Just wondering if anyone knows what's happening with the Class 322 fleet when Scotrail have finished with them?

I was on the understanding that they're leased by NXEA, and on a sub-lease to Scotrail.

This would normally mean that they'd return to NXEA, but since the sub-lease was setup NX have received the extra 17 Class 321 units - so they may not need the 322's back.

Does anyone have any ideas? Be interesting to hear suggestions as to where they're most needed as well..

Northern have always been mentioned for strengthening their West Yorkshire services, and considering they no longer have 1st Class seating and are identical to their 321/9s, I think they could be ideal.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Northern haven't got them. As far as i am Aware it's already said they will be heading to NXEA.
obviously will stand corrected.

 

[rail-britain]

Northern haven't got them

ScotRail are still using them until 27 March
Due to the lack of First Class they have been offered to Northern by NXEA

 

[NXEA!]

My understanding is that they're returning to NXEA around May once the 380's enter service on the North Berwick line. I'd heard that they were actually on sub-lease from NXEA, although how true this is I don't know. It is intended that they'll be able to help out around the Olympics. Although before and after this I don't know if they'll be used as slack in the fleet so other sets can be seen to or more sets can go to Doncaster for overhaul. I got this information from TR UK so I'm pretty sure it's accurate.
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Ahh, they're really being offered to Northern? What lines can they be used on though apart from around Manchester...? Surely it would be expensive to train up the guards/conductors and drivers on 5 sets so they can help out the 323's and turn over some services that are Diesel to Electric? Are there any lines around Leeds they can be used on?

 

[lm321412]

My understanding is that they're returning to NXEA around May once the 380's enter service on the North Berwick line. I'd heard that they were actually on sub-lease from NXEA, although how true this is I don't know. It is intended that they'll be able to help out around the Olympics. Although before and after this I don't know if they'll be used as slack in the fleet so other sets can be seen to or more sets can go to Doncaster for overhaul. I got this information from TR UK so I'm pretty sure it's accurate.
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Ahh, they're really being offered to Northern? What lines can they be used on though apart from around Manchester...? Surely it would be expensive to train up the guards/conductors and drivers on 5 sets so they can help out the 323's and turn over some services that are Diesel to Electric? Are there any lines around Leeds they can be used on?

They currently have the 321/9s which Leeds based drivers are trained on. Meaning you could work services to Bradford and strengthen the Doncaster services in theory.

It would also stop DMUs substituting EMUs in the Leeds area.

 

[158722]

A couple of usually reliable posters on the Northern forum are suggesting that the 321/9s will indeed pass to Northern once FSR have enough 380s in traffic. The suggestion is that they are for around the Leeds area for extra services and reducing the number of DMUs turns currently operated under the wires. Would make sense I think.

 

[87015]

Northern haven't got them. As far as i am Aware it's already said they will be heading to NXEA.
obviously will stand corrected.

No need for them on NXEA with the 317s available post-379 introduction...

 

[colchesterken]

Anyone know what the stock position on NXEA is i read they have a lot of 321 out of use due to cold weather defects,,it seems a waste them getting extra stock if it only covers for stock awaiting repair. I read C2C contract only provides for 2 units unavailable for repair,,that is what i call good planning

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

No need for them on NXEA with the 317s available post-379 introduction...

Sorry for the slight topic change, but is it right that it's the 317/7's that are going over to the GE?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anyone know what the stock position on NXEA is i read they have a lot of 321 out of use due to cold weather defects,,it seems a waste them getting extra stock if it only covers for stock awaiting repair. I read C2C contract only provides for 2 units unavailable for repair,,that is what i call good planning

The only ones that are long term out of service are 321346 (or 344 I can't remember which!) and 321425. There's also 317511, 514, and 315850 and 315859 also long term duds.

 

[NXEA!]

Sorry for the slight topic change, but is it right that it's the 317/7's that are going over to the GE?


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As far as I'm aware all the displaced 317's will be cascaded within West Anglia, enabling loads of 4 car services to go over to 8, although I have to admit, 21 317's seems like a lot to be cascaded. If they were going to go to GE, the 317/7's wouldn't really be that good to use as they have 2+2 seats so they couldn't beat the capacity of a 321 or 360, so they would be better suited for loco-hauled substitutes IMO. oh, and its 321346 which is unserviceable.

 

[87015]

317/7s on GE from Dec 11, Ipswich/Parkeston turns mostly plus the 1702 Norwich and return. As said countless times and has always been the end game plan.

WA strengthening should start occurring ad-hoc before December as the units become available, from the December WA* timetable there are loads of 317/6s spare for strengthening aswell when 379s broaden horizons to Cambridge/Lynn turns.

* Subject to approval

 

[Blindtraveler]

sending them to northern makes sense, but would equally be good if they stayed put as extra capacity on any electric runs in central belt. Prisumably northern wil remove cycle storage and peplace with seating?

317/7s on GE from Dec 11, Ipswich/Parkeston turns mostly plus the 1702 Norwich and return. As said countless times and has always been the end game plan.

WA strengthening should start occurring ad-hoc before December as the units become available, from the December WA* timetable there are loads of 317/6s spare for strengthening aswell when 379s broaden horizons to Cambridge/Lynn turns.

* Subject to approval

 

[NXEA!]

317/7s on GE from Dec 11, Ipswich/Parkeston turns mostly plus the 1702 Norwich and return. As said countless times and has always been the end game plan.

WA strengthening should start occurring ad-hoc before December as the units become available, from the December WA* timetable there are loads of 317/6s spare for strengthening aswell when 379s broaden horizons to Cambridge/Lynn turns.

* Subject to approval

Seriously? If its true that's great! I use the 17:02 to Norwich to go to Sudbury sometimes as it stops at Marks Tey and I use some of the Ipswich services so I might be able to have a spin on these. Will be interesting how they compare performance wise with the 321's and 360's with regards to acceleration.

 

[387star]

Hang on NXEA have FIVE units out of service. This is a DISGRACE. I can't think of any other operators in this situation in these times? The class 321 I'm particularly surprised with given their age. Anyway I've made amendments to my EMU book (knew 317511 was OOS) so thanks
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Is 317514 really out of service? This is in NX livery...

I did not know they were transferring so soon. It would make more sense for them to go to Northern and then back to NXEA (or whoever) for the olympics which is really just a few weeks, no?

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Hang on NXEA have FIVE units out of service. This is a DISGRACE. I can't think of any other operators in this situation in these times? The class 321 I'm particularly surprised with given their age. Anyway I've made amendments to my EMU book (knew 317511 was OOS) so thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is 317514 really out of service? This is in NX livery...

I make it 6 units out of service.... Yes 514 is out of service. Has been since May/June last year.

 

[NXEA!]

514's been out since May, 511 as we all know hasn't been in use since 2006, one of the 315's has been out of traffic since October 2008 (possibly 850 I think) and is at the back of Ilford with taped up windows, and the 321's and the other 315 haven't worked since last year either.

 

[rail-britain]

sending them to northern makes sense, but would equally be good if they stayed put as extra capacity on any electric runs in central belt

There have been plans and negotiations to have these units permanently transferred to the ScotRail franchise, but the DfT will not allow it
Seems quite bizarre for such a small fleet of EMUs, which are quite similar to the Class 320, but equally the Class 321
Hence why TS decided enough was enough and as part of the Class 380 order included four units to replace them and resolve the issue once and for all, pass the buck

 

[tbtc]

sending them to northern makes sense

I'd never argue against more trains at Northern, but its DMUs we badly need in Yorkshire, not EMUs.

Certainly another couple of EMUs at Neville HIll would make sense - at the moment Northern end up having to put valuable DMUs onto EMU duties when EMUs fail (the only thing that can "rescue" at 321/9 is another 321/9, so when two of them are out of action the third has to sit in the depot too, meaning 158s get put onto the Doncaster duties...).

However Northern have two distinct EMU fleets. The Lancashire one has seventeen 323s (which is not always enough), and will be getting additional EMUs for the Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool electrification in the next few years.

The Yorkshire fleet are 321/9s and 333s. I don't think any of the lines could cope with eight coach units (maybe Bradford - Leeds, if Frizinghall can?), and there are few spare paths for additional trains, so we certainly don't need all five EMUs. Maybe a swap could happen whereby the five 322s come to Leeds displacing three 321/9s for NXEA? That way Leeds gets an increase in capacity, but all stock would get regular use?

Don't get me wrong, I'd be delighted if these EMUs came to Yorkshire, but I;m struggling to think of ways they could be used (other than ensuring existing EMU duties are run by EMUs). For the Lancashire side, more 323s are needed in the short term (with the additional EMUs coming with the new electrification), maybe if any more 350s are built then LM could cascade some 323s north?

 

[Blindtraveler]

so you want more pasers? Sure the could be arraged . in all seriusness though, if money was available, increes the 172 order to completely replace the LM fleat of 150p and make inroads into the FGW/ATW fleats then cascade these units to northern. back on topic though, has provision been made for lease extention to 322s as the 380s most likely woant be ready?

 

[lm321412]

maybe if any more 350s are built then LM could cascade some 323s north?

The only way this would happen was if the new fleet of 350/3s were built for the Cross City Line.

I think LMs 7x 321s could be used well up here. They could be used to convert the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Walsall services over to 321 and then to send some 323s North or infact boost Cross City. Seems a shame that only 3 sets are currently in use and that the fleet is most likely to be cut back to 3 when Northern could benefit with some of our 323s, by making some of the Birmingham local services 321 operated.

The only problem would be crew training, of course.

 

[Blindtraveler]

there hasnt been any announcement re cross city line stock replacement has there? I like 323s, good at what they do.

 

[lm321412]

there hasnt been any announcement re cross city line stock replacement has there? I like 323s, good at what they do.

Nope, nothing and I cannot see it currently happening. But you never know...

 

[Blindtraveler]

would certainly give them an easier fleat maintainance wise. My guess though is they'll wate til the major mid life refurb and then decide what if anything to do. Wonder how future deziro orders wil be affected by the 380 nonsense up here?

Nope, nothing and I cannot see it currently happening. But you never know...

 

[rail-britain]

Wonder how future deziro orders wil be affected by the 380 nonsense up here?

Shouldn't be any issues, the ScotRail ones are rather unique and have quite a different specification, compared to what they have built thus far

 

[tbtc]

The only way this would happen was if the new fleet of 350/3s were built for the Cross City Line.

I think LMs 7x 321s could be used well up here. They could be used to convert the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Walsall services over to 321 and then to send some 323s North or infact boost Cross City. Seems a shame that only 3 sets are currently in use and that the fleet is most likely to be cut back to 3 when Northern could benefit with some of our 323s, by making some of the Birmingham local services 321 operated.

The only problem would be crew training, of course.

The cynic in me wonders whether the post-Thameslink cascade will mean 319s to LM for Birmingham area services and cascaded 323s to Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool area (ensuring a common EMU fleet there for Northern)

 

[Blindtraveler]

in what way, 3 coach units, end gangways and all the environmental enhancements aside are they different? I'm all for getting something thats rite for where its working but it just seams to be one problem after another?

Shouldn't be any issues, the ScotRail ones are rather unique and have quite a different specification, compared to what they have built thus far

 

[rail-britain]

in what way, 3 coach units, end gangways and all the environmental enhancements aside are they different? I'm all for getting something thats rite for where its working but it just seams to be one problem after another?

The coaches and are longer and heavier
The power systems were adjusted to take that into account
The braking system also has to take into account the extra weight
In effect the building template is the same, but that is where the similarities end
It's like comparing a Ford Focus with a Ford Mondeo

 

[lm321412]

The cynic in me wonders whether the post-Thameslink cascade will mean 319s to LM for Birmingham area services and cascaded 323s to Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool area (ensuring a common EMU fleet there for Northern)

The only problem would be that some peak services here are worked by 6 coach trains and 8 coach trains won't fit on most of the Cross City platforms. It would make sense, but the other thing is would LMs 26x 323s cover all the new boards required to be EMU operated?

But other than the platforms may need lengthening and that their may not be enough EMUs, then yes it sounds like a good idea.

 

[317 forever]

I think the class 322s ought to come to Northern to restore EMUs on the Hazel Grove-Manchester shuttles, with the Buxton-Manchester service extended to Preston.