Class 319 and 323 multiple working

[DanNCL]

I’ve just seen a 319 and a 323 coupled outside Allerton, which took me by surprise as I didn’t think the two classes were compatible. I assume this combination is only possible for empty stock moves, and not permitted in passenger service? Thanks for any replies.

 

[Strathclyder]

Both classes have Tightlock couplers; Wikipedia (I know I know lol) states that multiple working for 323s is limited to within class only in normal service and with other classes when rescue is required or for empty coaching stock moves as you mention. Not being familar with either class, I don't know how often the latter occurs in practice if at all. I'd be interested to know either way, as these unusual unit combos have always fascinated me.

Going back to over a decade ago & to use a far more relevent (for me at least) example of this sort of thing with ScotRail, you could sometimes get a Class 314 working in multiple with a Class 322 on a ECS move from Shields TMD to Glasgow Central (see link below), but they never worked in normal passenger service together.

scot-rail.co.uk » Photo » 314 + 322 coupled in Glasgow Central

 

[Towers]

Don't know a great deal about 319s, but don't 323s have some unusual 90s-spec traction equipment - Thyristor or some such? I would imagine that would make out-of-class multiple working rather unlikely?

 

[Prestige15]

Both classes have Tightlock couplers; Wikipedia (I know I know lol) states that multiple working for 323s is limited to within class only in normal service and with other classes when rescue is required or for empty coaching stock moves as you mention. Not being familar with either class, I don't know how often the latter occurs in practice if at all. I'd be interested to know either way, as these unusual unit combos have always fascinated me.

Going back at over a decade ago & to use a far more relevent (for me at least) example of this sort of thing with ScotRail, you could sometimes get a Class 314 working in multiple with a Class 322 on a ECS move from Shields TMD to Glasgow Central (see link below), but they never worked in normal passenger service together.

scot-rail.co.uk » Photo » 314 + 322 coupled in Glasgow Central

Same story for 317 and 365 back in WAGN days

 

[Tynwald]

323's were updated with Alstom IGBT traction inverter package (same as pendo's, Juniper, and others). The compatibility purely relies on the train wire configuration, and that likely will be very similar

 

[py_megapixel]

323's were updated with Alstom IGBT traction inverter package (same as pendo's, Juniper, and others).

There is something still left over from their original 90s equipment - you can hear it!

In any case, the traction package has very little to do with this because, as you say:

the compatibility purely relies on the train wire configuration, and that likely will be very similar

But not the same. Hence they are physically able to couple to each other, but only for rescue operations and not in service. Or at least, that was the outcome of another thread a year or two ago with an almost identical premise.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What I'd heard previously was that 323s were specified to be compatible with 317-322, though in practice such workings would be unlikely purely from a geographical point of view. This may have only ever been intended for rescue/recovery in any case.

 

[tomuk]

There is something still left over from their original 90s equipment - you can hear it!

In any case, the traction package has very little to do with this because, as you say:

But not the same. Hence they are physically able to couple to each other, but only for rescue operations and not in service.

The original GTO traction package has been replaced with modern IGBTs. To retain the existing safety case and save on testing and paperwork the IGBT 'impersonate' the original slow GTO switching that's why the 323s still sound the same.

 

[py_megapixel]

The original GTO traction package has been replaced with modern IGBTs. To retain the existing safety case and save on testing and paperwork the IGBT 'impersonate' the original slow GTO switching that's why the 323s still sound the same.

Yes, that's it, I remember now.
Which really should disprove some of the rubbish I've seen put on here before about how being driven by IGBT inverters inherently makes motors sound different - it doesn't if whatever's controlling them hasn't been programmed taking advantage of the higher available switching frequency! But I digress.

 

[D365]

Which really should disprove some of the rubbish I've seen put on here before about how being driven by IGBT inverters inherently makes motors sound different - it doesn't if whatever's controlling them hasn't been programmed taking advantage of the higher available switching frequency! But I digress.

Also disproves the common misunderstanding that the motors themselves are changed out!

 

[43096]

Also disproves the common misunderstanding that the motors themselves are changed out!

The 323 project was similar in scope to the the Class 465/0/1 re-tractioning project done some years ago. The traction motors (Holec in the 323s, Brush in the 465s) were retained and it was the associated control system/inverters that were changed (Holec* GTO to Alstom IGBT for the 323s, Brush GTO to Hitachi IGBT in the 465s).

* Holec is of course now part of Alstom.

 

[contrex]

don't 323s have some unusual 90s-spec traction equipment - Thyristor or some such?

Holec three-phase drive, if I remember my Modern Railways correctly. 319s have DC motors controlled by thyristors, a comparative novelty in 1987. That wouldn't rule multiple working out in principle, though. A notch is a notch. Overall, though, too complicated for passenger use. Door control, etc.

 

[boiledbeans2]

The original GTO traction package has been replaced with modern IGBTs. To retain the existing safety case and save on testing and paperwork the IGBT 'impersonate' the original slow GTO switching that's why the 323s still sound the same.

When did this happen? I assume both Northern's fleet and WMT's fleet have the new traction package?

 

[MP393]

They can couple and work in multiple but only in exceptional circumstances I believe. Some testing was done on the Airport line a few years ago (the 319 in question was in Northern Electrics livery so it’s that long ago) and also on Stockport Carriage Sheds. Not sure if it’s been done on the mainline since then however apart from ok depot moves like the OP has stated on Allerton

 

[tomuk]

When did this happen? I assume both Northern's fleet and WMT's fleet have the new traction package?

They were all done by February 2017. The main reason was to change from Freon CFC cooling of the traction packs to water/methanol.

https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/traction-heart-transplant

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2021 ==

Holec three-phase drive, if I remember my Modern Railways correctly. 319s have DC motors controlled by thyristors, a comparative novelty in 1987. That wouldn't rule multiple working out in principle, though. A notch is a notch. Overall, though, too complicated for passenger use. Door control, etc.

The 319s, 325s and 456s use GTO chopper controlled DC motors. The 314s>322s use thyristors.

 

[childwallblues]

Whilst both the 319s and 323s are based at Allerton these days there has been no reported workings between the depot and Lime Street.
Possibly it was an internal depot movement.

 

[contrex]

The 319s, 325s and 456s use GTO chopper controlled DC motors. The 314s>322s use thyristors.

A chopper is a type of thyristor, isn't it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There can't be much demand for 150m 319+323 combinations on the Northern network, the only TOC where it is remotely worthwhile in the medium term.
Are there even any double 323 or 319 workings at the moment?

 

[DanNCL]

Thanks for all the replies. This will have been an internal depot movement at Allerton, as they were viewed in the headshunt. I asked the question as it was a combination I’d not seen before, and took me by surprise given that the 323s have always been operated as a self contained fleet!

 

[tomuk]

chopper is a type of thyristor, isn't it?

Yes GTO is a Gate Turn Off Thyristor. On a normal thyristor you can switch it on but can't switch it off. With a GTO you can switch it on and off at will albeit it lower frequencies than an IGBT.

 

[westcoaster]

I remember if we had to rescue a networker with a 319, there is a special cut out switch in the 465/466 cab to cut out iirc the rheostatic brakes. I'll see if I can find a picture.

 

[Galvanize]

I remember if we had to rescue a networker with a 319, there is a special cut out switch in the 465/466 cab to cut out iirc the rheostatic brakes. I'll see if I can find a picture.

Class 365s had that switch too on the second man’s side.
365/465 or “OTHER” which you used a Master Key to switch if coupling to another type of unit!

 

[Scotrail314209]

Both classes have Tightlock couplers; Wikipedia (I know I know lol) states that multiple working for 323s is limited to within class only in normal service and with other classes when rescue is required or for empty coaching stock moves as you mention. Not being familar with either class, I don't know how often the latter occurs in practice if at all. I'd be interested to know either way, as these unusual unit combos have always fascinated me.

Going back to over a decade ago & to use a far more relevent (for me at least) example of this sort of thing with ScotRail, you could sometimes get a Class 314 working in multiple with a Class 322 on a ECS move from Shields TMD to Glasgow Central (see link below), but they never worked in normal passenger service together.

scot-rail.co.uk » Photo » 314 + 322 coupled in Glasgow Central

There’s also been a 314/318 combination when the 318 lost its pantograph, the 314 hauled it back to Shields

 

[Efini92]

They can couple but only for rescuing. From what I remember there’s an issue with the pass comms that stops brake release, so the train has to have EBS raised.

 

[liam456]

The original GTO traction package has been replaced with modern IGBTs. To retain the existing safety case and save on testing and paperwork the IGBT 'impersonate' the original slow GTO switching that's why the 323s still sound the same.

Wow! If the IGBT switching frequencies are higher enough to not be really audible, how does the traction package make the classic sound? Did the loud sound really affect the health & safety paperwork for the train?

 

[Strathclyder]

There’s also been a 314/318 combination when the 318 lost its pantograph, the 314 hauled it back to Shields

I was indeed aware of that incident, but a 314+318 combo had actually happened more than once (linked vid from the scottishrailways YT channel whose description states the 318 in question had suffered a loss of compression), but the 314+322 combo was far more unusual hence my showcasing it above lol

 

[43096]

Wow! If the IGBT switching frequencies are higher enough to not be really audible, how does the traction package make the classic sound? Did the loud sound really affect the health & safety paperwork for the train?

They are audible, but IGBTs normally give a much smoother increase in sound.

As an example, compare an Austrian 1116 with GTO traction system and a 1216, which has IGBTs.

 

[boiledbeans2]

They were all done by February 2017. The main reason was to change from Freon CFC cooling of the traction packs to water/methanol.

https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/traction-heart-transplant

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2021 ==

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately that link is behind a paywall. Interesting, are there any other EMUs with Freon CFC cooling?

 

[driverd]

Just to return to the OPs question - most likely one of the units will have been effectively acting as a shunter with the other unit dead/otherwise not electrically coupled. Its not unheard of to use a unit if a shunt locomotive is unavailable/inconveniently located.