Class 317 doors

[Bikeman78]

To open the doors on a 317 you have to push the button firmly for about half a second. Most people don't cope with this very well. It's got much worse in the past few months. In my experience over 75% of adults, of all ages, fail to get the doors open at the first attempt. The school kids have no trouble at all.

I find this a bit odd. Until 18 months ago, 317s were the mainstay on the Hertford and Cambridge lines for 25 years. They still put in daily appearances on both routes. Do people really forget how things work that quickly? It probably doesn't help that they've put stickers next to the buttons "to open the doors please press and hold this button." The only problem is that the label is next to the close button. However that only applies inside the train.

Are there any other trains with doors that behave the same way, e.g. class 455?

 

[prod_pep]

The ex-508 carriages on the 455/7s have precisely this problem. Every time I ride one, without fail, at least one passenger struggles to get the doors open and keeps tapping the button. Many give up and move to another door, sometimes delaying the train slightly. Stickers have been applied here too, advising passengers to hold the button, advice which often goes unheeded.

However, it only seems to affect the ex-508 carriages of the SWR 455s, in my experience.

 

[D365]

Are these the EAO yellow/silver buttons or the obsolete black buttons?

 

[Paul Jones 88]

The secret with 317 doors is to press and hold the button before the train stops and the door is released really quickly.

 

[Lewlew]

The secret with 317 doors is to press and hold the button before the train stops and the door is released really quickly.

The same on 350s too

 

[Bikeman78]

The secret with 317 doors is to press and hold the button before the train stops and the door is released really quickly.

Yes I do this with the 317s and all the 1980s BR units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

The ex-508 carriages on the 455/7s have precisely this problem. Every time I ride one, without fail, at least one passenger struggles to get the doors open and keeps tapping the button. Many give up and move to another door, sometimes delaying the train slightly. Stickers have been applied here too, advising passengers to hold the button, advice which often goes unheeded.

However, it only seems to affect the ex-508 carriages of the SWR 455s, in my experience.

Interesting. I'll test the 313s next time I go on one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

Are these the EAO yellow/silver buttons or the obsolete black buttons?

I don't think anything has the black rubber buttons any more. The non PRM 317s were the last to have them.

 

[prod_pep]

Interesting. I'll test the 313s next time I go on one.

It doesn't affect the 313s; a tap of the button is sufficient to open their doors. The only PEP-derived carriages I've ever seen affected by this problem are the 455/7s' ex-508 vehicles.

Both the 315s and 508s had the same rubber door buttons as the 317s from new, and the 508s that returned south had them re-instated. The 315s lost theirs when refurbished in the 2000s, receiving a new and much improved mechanism. I used both classes many times with the old controls and can't remember having any issues getting their doors open.

 

[boiledbeans2]

From my experience in industrial automation, my guess is that the doors switches on those units discussed in this thread are purely pneumatic circuits, as opposed to electro-pneumatic.

In a newer train, the push of the button closes an electrical switch, which triggers a circuit latch (in ladder logic), which energizes the solenoid in a pneumatic solenoid valve. Then the door opens pneumatically.

But in the Class 317s, everything is pneumatic. The push of a button closes a pneumatic switch which moves the pilot-operated pneumatic valve from the 'door closed' to 'door open' position. In simple terms, it takes time for the 'door open' air pressure signal to build up and for the 'door closed' pressure signal to fall. So you need to hold on to the button for a moment.

 

[D365]

But in the Class 317s, everything is pneumatic. The push of a button closes a pneumatic switch which moves the pilot-operated pneumatic valve from the 'door closed' to 'door open' position. In simple terms, it takes time for the 'door open' air pressure signal to build up and for the 'door closed' pressure signal to fall. So you need to hold on to the button for a moment.

I thought that a number of the 317s have electric EAO buttons retrofitted.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I thought that a number of the 317s have electric EAO buttons retrofitted.

My original post referred to the 317s with the black rubber buttons.

I don't remember pressing the 317s with EAO buttons, so can't comment.

But the SWR ex-508 trailers with the EAO buttons behave exactly like the 317s with rubber buttons, so I believe they retained the pneumatic circuits when they replaced the buttons.

 

[O L Leigh]

From my experience in industrial automation, my guess is that the doors switches on those units discussed in this thread are purely pneumatic circuits, as opposed to electro-pneumatic.

In a newer train, the push of the button closes an electrical switch, which triggers a circuit latch (in ladder logic), which energizes the solenoid in a pneumatic solenoid valve. Then the door opens pneumatically.

But in the Class 317s, everything is pneumatic. The push of a button closes a pneumatic switch which moves the pilot-operated pneumatic valve from the 'door closed' to 'door open' position. In simple terms, it takes time for the 'door open' air pressure signal to build up and for the 'door closed' pressure signal to fall. So you need to hold on to the button for a moment.

I'm not technical enough to know for a fact that your description is correct, but you are right in saying that the system is purely pneumatic. The door has to be induced to move a certain amount towards being open before the system takes over. Holding the button for a second or two ensures that this happens. Release it too early and the door springs back into the closed position.

But the SWR ex-508 trailers with the EAO buttons behave exactly like the 317s with rubber buttons, so I believe they retained the pneumatic circuits when they replaced the buttons.

I believe that this is the case.

(Used to sign Cl317s as my basic traction)

 

[D365]

My original post referred to the 317s with the black rubber buttons.

I don't remember pressing the 317s with EAO buttons, so can't comment.

But the SWR ex-508 trailers with the EAO buttons behave exactly like the 317s with rubber buttons, so I believe they retained the pneumatic circuits when they replaced the buttons.

For some reason, I had it in my head that you were implying the black buttons directly affect the pneumatic system!

 

[boiledbeans2]

For some reason, I had it in my head that you were implying the black buttons directly affect the pneumatic system!

Not sure I understand your comment.
But yes, the black buttons are part of the pneumatic system. The button is a pneumatic switch. When you push it, it closes a pneumatic circuit, as opposed to an electrical circuit on a newer train.

 

[Bikeman78]

My original post referred to the 317s with the black rubber buttons.

I don't remember pressing the 317s with EAO buttons, so can't comment.

But the SWR ex-508 trailers with the EAO buttons behave exactly like the 317s with rubber buttons, so I believe they retained the pneumatic circuits when they replaced the buttons.

All the remaining 317s have the buttons with the arrows on that light up but they behave in exactly the same way as the previous buttons. Curiously they have blanked over half of the buttons on the inside but not the outside. Also they have reversed the positions of the open and close buttons. Never been able to get to the bottom of this. The IETs have the open buttons above the close like the 317s did until modified.

 

[D365]

Not sure I understand your comment.
But yes, the black buttons are part of the pneumatic system. The button is a pneumatic switch. When you push it, it closes a pneumatic circuit, as opposed to an electrical circuit on a newer train.

You can ignore that particular comment.

What’s confusing me is how the replacement buttons (as described by Bikeman78 above) can affect a pneumatic circuit. I thought that the EAO buttons are electric only.

 

[tomuk]

Am I correct in suggesting that the 317s originally had metal handles\flaps on the doors which you pulled open to initiate the automatic doors?

 

[southern442]

Am I correct in suggesting that the 317s originally had metal handles\flaps on the doors which you pulled open to initiate the automatic doors?

The PEP prototypes definitely did.

 

[Ken H]

Am I correct in suggesting that the 317s originally had metal handles\flaps on the doors which you pulled open to initiate the automatic doors?

I thought that was 313..

 

[D365]

I thought that was 313..

That’s what I thought too. The metal handles are still commonplace on Munich U-Bahn.

 

[O L Leigh]

Am I correct in suggesting that the 317s originally had metal handles\flaps on the doors which you pulled open to initiate the automatic doors?

Nope. That was only the Cl313s as described above. It was apparently short-lived because apparently passengers used to yank them quite hard which caused them to fail.