Class 313 electrical/lighting problems

[jon0844]

A few weeks ago, I was on a FCC 313 where the lighting didn't come back on after the AC/DC switch at Drayton Park (leaving emergency lighting only). It was only because the dispatcher at Highbury & Islington noticed that the driver sorted it out and apologised.

I'd barely noticed at first as I was on my BlackBerry, but soon noticed it was darker and some people were fidgeting and looking rather agitated! It's quite amusing that I didn't notice, but I did have a light as I stood in the doorway. Not everyone was so fortunate. For anyone that doesn't know, when the emergency lighting is on - that means four lights per carriage, in a zig zag fashion. It isn't pitch black, but it isn't exactly nice.

Tonight, the 1835 service to Hertford North at Old Street was on emergency lighting, having come from Moorgate (1833?). The train was 313061, and some of the emergency lights were obviously faulty as the rear part of the rear carriage was pitch black! Bet that was nice in the tunnels.

Are there any issues with these trains? I am sure people don't like going underground with no lights on. It's possible this was the same train I was on a few weeks back, but it's quite amazing it left Moorgate like that! It sits there a while, so why didn't anyone say anything!

I did report it to a member of staff but they seemed to totally disinterested and said that someone should notice by Finsbury Park!

 

[philjo]

I have been on a few 313 services in the past starting at Letchworth where there was no lighting at all.
Generally it was when it was sunny in summer so no-one noticed/complained until we went through the 2 Welwyn tunnels in complete darkness. The lights tended to then come on promptly on arrival at Welwyn Garden City after someone pointed out to the driver that there were no lights! I think this was the lights not being turned on when leaving Letchworth sidings rather than a fault.
The platform dispatch staff at Stevenage do tend to notice these things & won't dispatch the train until the driver has been informed.

I have noticed a couple of units recently where one coach was only on emergency lighting but the other coaches had full lighting.

On a related note, I wish someone would sort out the heating in coach 62637 - it was like a fridge in there this morning (I could see my breath condensing in front of me) - I gather the other coaches in this unit were very warm, so presumably a thermostat problem with this particular coach.

 

[jon0844]

I've boarded a train at WGC where the driver has forgotten to put the lights on (as you say, it's been taken out of the sidings). A quick mention before departing and job done!

When I've been on trains where the lights are off completely, you really do get to see how effective the glowing strips are in the tunnels!! It's been some time since no lights have been on at all.

Another moan is there's one 313 (or at least one coach) where the buzzer for the doors is a constant (as against pulsing), incredibly loud and high-pitched sound that is deafening. You're literally having to cover your ears!

 

[Aictos]

On a related note, I wish someone would sort out the heating in coach 62637 - it was like a fridge in there this morning (I could see my breath condensing in front of me) - I gather the other coaches in this unit were very warm, so presumably a thermostat problem with this particular coach.

Just some advice, why not just move into another coach?

It's a well known issue at the moment anyway but it seems that if the heating in one coach doesn't work then it should be in the next coach!

 

[33056]

An old driver once told me about the 313s on the Watford - Euston line that if the heating was poor / not working in the centre coach, then it was likely that the two outer ones would be OK.

This also worked in reverse in that if the middle coach was warm, the the outer ones could be cold :-?

Sounds a bit strange but I have found it to be largely true though would not like to comment whether this phenomenon is only apparent when they are running on the third rail.

 

[O L Leigh]

There are no hard and fast rules regarding the heating on EMU's.

One of our morning turns takes out a double Cl315 empty down to Broxbourne to work the Hertford East services. Because of the arrangements for shunting the empty units into the down platform from the up line we have to walk through them, and sometimes you will find cold coaches. However, I have never observed any kind of pattern to them.

Then again, the human brain loves to look for patterns where none exist. Show someone a page of truly random numbers and they will see patterns in them.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

There's a thermostat in each carriage isn't there? Surely it's as simple as that - a faulty thermostat that isn't turning the heating on (or off).

Someone fitted incorrect parts on an earlier 313 refresh and I remember FCC (or maybe even Wagn) saying that this problem had been identified and the right parts beign ordered - and this caused the heating problem which was now known about.

I wonder if they only replaced the part as and when required (i.e. when they don't work), so perhaps people should report the carriage numbers and see if they can be fixed?

Not that I know how you best inform some engineer at Hornsey to stand a chance of the messaging getting through, as against emailing customer services for a bog-standard reply.

Maybe a driver can make a note when they walk through, as there must be a log book in each cab?

 

[Aictos]

There are no hard and fast rules regarding the heating on EMU's.

One of our morning turns takes out a double Cl315 empty down to Broxbourne to work the Hertford East services. Because of the arrangements for shunting the empty units into the down platform from the up line we have to walk through them, and sometimes you will find cold coaches. However, I have never observed any kind of pattern to them.

Then again, the human brain loves to look for patterns where none exist. Show someone a page of truly random numbers and they will see patterns in them.

O L Leigh

I'm just referring to something one of your driver colleagues on the GN was stating to me.

 

[royaloak]

There's a thermostat in each carriage isn't there? Surely it's as simple as that - a faulty thermostat that isn't turning the heating on (or off).

Maybe, maybe not, could be something serious, prepping a 455 and the heating wasnt working in 1 coach, had a look in the environment cupboard and a note stuck on it saying it was to be left off, now would it be worth taking that train out of service for no heating and cause overcrowding, or run it with no heat in the coach.

Someone fitted incorrect parts on an earlier 313 refresh and I remember FCC (or maybe even Wagn) saying that this problem had been identified and the right parts beign ordered - and this caused the heating problem which was now known about.

Did they say when the parts would be delivered/ fitted?

I wonder if they only replaced the part as and when required (i.e. when they don't work), so perhaps people should report the carriage numbers and see if they can be fixed?

Why would you replace something that worked if it wasnt a safety or service item? Do you change parts on your car that are not life expired such as the radiator, heater matrix etc!

Not that I know how you best inform some engineer at Hornsey to stand a chance of the messaging getting through, as against emailing customer services for a bog-standard reply.

I am sure the engineers dont want 300 people a day ringing up complaining about things. If there is enough information then customer services will pass it on!

Maybe a driver can make a note when they walk through, as there must be a log book in each cab?

Really, news to me!

 

[CarterUSM]

Cold train, or no train? I'll take the cold train thanks. Unless the cab heater is not working.

 

[jon0844]

When did ANYONE suggest taking a train out of service for no heating? I never said it and nobody else has either!! I accept that might happen if the driver is going to be frozen for the day, but not inside the carriages.

All I am saying is that the train company acknowledged a fault with parts fitted on the 313s and said another part was ordered. I asked here whether they were fitted straight away, or only in the cases where the heating wasn't working properly. It seems quite a straight forward question, as I obviously don't know. I could enquire, but what's the point? If they're only fitted as and when needed, who is checking to see when they will be needed?

If it was the wrong part entirely, you'd think that they might all be changed - meaning it could be the new parts that are failing. It's not a safety critical part, but why would the TOC even mention it otherwise? It was a number of years ago, but I am pretty sure it was FCC so some time after 2006 (April).

Finally, I didn't know there was no log book on a train. That surprises me, as I know buses have them - and a driver can't even take a bus out if the log book is missing. Any fault is supposed to be put in the book by the driver, to keep a record for later maintenance.

Is there a log book for each train kept at a depot? Otherwise, who keeps track of the little faults like windows not opening/closing, HVAC issues, seat/trim faults or whatever?

 

[royaloak]

Obviously different companies do things differently,
I was a bus driver for 20 years and have never known a defect book on the bus, at my depot when I started it was a school exercise book in the depot, then, when I left, it was a very large sheet of paper with the fleet numbers down the side and the driver that prepped it and took it out in the morning signed the sheet (and wrote in any small defects) and the same for the driver that brought it in at end of service.
At my train company we have to ring faults in, but as we are not provided with a phone, paid for the call or given the time to do it very few people bother, only when the train dies do I ring up for advice to trace the fault.

 

[jon0844]

Well around here, it would seem that both Arriva and Uno have log books on the bus with clear notices that the bus doesn't move if the book isn't there.

Now, whether anyone takes any notice of that, I don't know - as I don't generally check!

 

[CarterUSM]

I thought defect books were provided in all units at either end. They are with us and if I remember correctly northern have them also. I phone defects in via NRN or with my company mobile. Though, there is no point in reporting in this instance by the sound of it as it will be fixed when the correct parts arrive. Are the 313's akin to the 314's whereby the doors all open when released? Bit pointless having heating anyway when it flies out the doors every stop.

 

[Pumbaa]

LM has a fitters log in the No1 end of theirs. There's a sheet somewhere else for problem reporting.

 

[jon0844]

The parts issue was years ago. It's quite possible that the faulty heating is down to these parts failing, or something else entirely.

The only way to find out is for someone at the depot to investigate. The problem with power (lighting) also needs to be looked at, but I can't see any easy way of reporting the faults - but will try the usual customer service option. I'm doubtful anything will happen.

In the past, I'd email the MD - but that's an option no longer open to me since she left.

On the plus side, I see the CCTV seems to work - as a story in the local paper showed recently, with a youngster that was doing something rather naughty on the train in front of a female passenger...

 

[philjo]

Are the 313's akin to the 314's whereby the doors all open when released? Bit pointless having heating anyway when it flies out the doors every stop.

They used to be like this originally.
The doors had open/close buttons installed & the high-back seats fitted as part of a refresh a few years ago (I think WAGN did this?)
I reported the number of the cold coach to FCC customer services & I got a response last week saying that they had passed the details on to the maintenance team (3 weeks after i reported it to them)

East Coast services have a notice at the end of each coach showing a number you can use to send a text message to report faults - you just prefix the coach number shown on the notice at the start of the message.

 

[jon0844]

Actually, I just remembered FCC has a text number for reporting station/train issues - but I am not sure what it is, or if it's still promoted or active.

 

[Aictos]

East Coast services have a notice at the end of each coach showing a number you can use to send a text message to report faults - you just prefix the coach number shown on the notice at the start of the message.

Do they? I've never noticed and I travel with them quite a lot!

 

[jon0844]

There used to be posters up, and it was just a regular mobile number - no fancy 5 digit shortcode. This was not longer after FCC took over and put up all the posters to promise great improvements.

...Ah, slowly the memory comes back.. I've searched my address book and found what I believe to be the number, which is down as Karen Boswell (who is no longer with the company). I can now remember that you could send a message to her* to report things.

* Arguably, it won't have been her actually reading them - or answering the phone should anyone have tried to call it! However, lots of companies like to give the impression that you can email the MD or whatever - even if they're still screened.

 

[O L Leigh]

They used to be like this originally.
The doors had open/close buttons installed & the high-back seats fitted as part of a refresh a few years ago (I think WAGN did this?).

Not quite correct.

The Cl313's were built with slim handles on the doors that acted like local door switches rather than the more usual buttons. You'd give them a tug and the doors would open. However, this method of control didn't last very long and local door controls were removed within a year or two.

You can just about see them in this photo.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

There are still some metro trains in Barcelona with manual handles to operate the sliding doors.

 

[mbonwick]

Obviously different companies do things differently,
I was a bus driver for 20 years and have never known a defect book on the bus, at my depot when I started it was a school exercise book in the depot, then, when I left, it was a very large sheet of paper with the fleet numbers down the side and the driver that prepped it and took it out in the morning signed the sheet (and wrote in any small defects) and the same for the driver that brought it in at end of service.

It's a legal requirement that buses carry some form of defect reporting system. Stagecoach operate a card system that's signed by every driver upon taking over/leaving the vehicle with any faults noted.

 

[royaloak]

Buses do not have to carry it but there must be something available, in my experience this is usually at the depot.

 

[jon0844]

Drivers don't sign in or out in the book when they change over - but I do believe they login on their (rather ancient now) ticket machines.

The book must be a log book for defects only.

 

[wheel tapper]

this is me first posting be gentle, there is defect book on all FCC units one per unit where the drivers fill in these are then viewed and acted upon at the depot during exam work and then the book must then be stamped and signed. the heaters on the 313's are thermostatically controlled but if the fuse has blown this can only be changed at the depot or the sidings due to its location.

 

[ukrob]

An old driver once told me about the 313s on the Watford - Euston line that if the heating was poor / not working in the centre coach, then it was likely that the two outer ones would be OK.

Sounds a bit strange but I have found it to be largely true though would not like to comment whether this phenomenon is only apparent when they are running on the third rail.

There are no hard and fast rules regarding the heating on EMU's.

One of our morning turns takes out a double Cl315 empty down to Broxbourne to work the Hertford East services. Because of the arrangements for shunting the empty units into the down platform from the up line we have to walk through them, and sometimes you will find cold coaches. However, I have never observed any kind of pattern to them.

Then again, the human brain loves to look for patterns where none exist. Show someone a page of truly random numbers and they will see patterns in them.

O L Leigh

It is certainly the case on Merseyrail 507/8s (not so much after their refurb a few years ago). Freezing centre coach and two warm end ones.

 

[33056]

QED Had 313 134 home this morning, hopped into the middle coach and it was like a fridge so went into the front coach which was acceptably warm. Got on the same unit a short while ago, in the coach which I didn't sample this morning and that was warm.

If I remember tomorrow morning, I will get in the rear coach and walk through the other two just to check (assuming that it isn't 313 134 again).