Class 252, 253 and 254

[Crossforth]

Hey guys

I was just wondering if anybody had the initial formations for these class.

I know that they eventually ended up shifting about and becoming 43+MK3+43 but just wondering if there is anywhere that notes the originals or if there is a way to work it out. Just curious.

Thanks

 

[4SRKT]

I don't know about the prototype, but when new 253 sets were 7 cars and allocated to the Western Region (Old Oak, St Philip's Marsh). They were formed DMB-TF-TF-TRSB-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DMB. The 254 was the Eastern Region version (Bounds Green, Neville Hill, Heaton) and was formed DMB-TF-TF-TRUB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DMB. Vehicles were later allocated to Laira and Craigentinny as well.

The NESW sets were formed up later and were 7 car sets, but had the most second class accomodation of any combination, being formed DMB-TF-TRSB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DMB. I believe these were class 253, culled mainly from Western Region stock and forcing the [welcome] introduction of the class 50-hauled (often double-headed) 'Jumbo Trains' on the West of England route from Paddington. The NESW sets were based at Laira anyway. Midland Main Line sets were ECML sets based at Neville Hill. They certainly speeded up that line over the previous peaks, but in the 80s when power car failures were a frequent problem, Neville Hill would usually put any sets with a failed power car on the MML, removing any of the benefit.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The TGS weren't originally in the formations; they weren't built until 1980.

 

[4SRKT]

Well, TS then.

 

[theblackwatch]

The first 253s actually had 2 catering cars in them - and were formed DMB+TF+TF+TRUK+TS+TS+TRSB+TS+DMB. It was soon realised that 2 catering cars was overkill and not even all 20 of the TRUKs made it into service on the WR. The WR sets then became DMB+TF+TF+TRSB or TRUB+TS+TS+TS+TS+DMB. All the TRUKs ended up with the ER and 254001-20 were initially formed DMB+TF+TF+TRUK+TS+TS+TRSB+TS+TS+DMB, and 254021-32 were DMB+TF+TF+TRUB+TS+TS+TS+TS+TS+DMB.

 

[Helvellyn]

The first 27 sets went to the WR. These were 9 vehicle 253 sets. Planned formation was DMB-TF-TF-TRUK-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB.

Very early on it was realised that the catering offering was over heavy for seven coach sets, and the final 7 TRUKs were cancelled and replaced by an additional TS.

DMBs were 43002-43055
TRSBs were 40001-40027 (later 40401-40427)
TRUKs were 40501-40520 (40521-40527 cancelled)
TFs were 41003-41056
TSs were 42003-42090 (42084-42090 replacement for 40521-40527)

The next 32 sets were for the ER and were to be 10 vehicle 254 sets. Due to the decision not to use TRUKs on the WR, the first 20 TS vehicles went to the WR to replace these, with TRUKs to be used in some ER sets. 10 sets were built with TS vehicles, a further 22 with TRUBs (which had a larger kitchen and were designed to be an all-in-one catering vehicle). Formations were either PC-TF-TF-TRUK-TRSB-TS-TS-TS-TS-PC, PC-TF-TF-TRUK-TRUB-TS-TS-TS-TS or PC-TF-TF-TRUB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TS (final 12 sets).

DMBs were 43056-43123 (43122/123 built out of sequence as spares; 43120/121 spares)
TRSBs were 40028-40037 (Later 40428-40437)
TRUBs were 40300-40321
TFs were 41057-41120
TSs were 42091-42250 (42091-42110 direct to WR to replace TRUKs)

Next batch were planned to be 9 vehicle 253 sets for the WR again. These were built with TRUBs. 14 sets were built, though I believe the 14th set was never formed as planned.

DMBs were 43124-43152 (43124 was a spare)
TRUBs were 40322-40335
TFs were 41121-41148
TSs were 42251-42306

The next sets were planned to be the first NE-SW (later CrossCountry) sets. At the same time it had been decided to introduce the TGS vehicle in place of a TS in each of the existing sets. This was because of problems with the Guard being in the PC. Furthermore, the catering vehicles built were TRUBs, though these were to be swapped for TRSBs. The NE-SW sets saw the first major reformations take place as a result, the aim being to produce sets that would be formed PC-TF-TRSB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS-PC. However, the ER got some additional sets from these formed PC-TF-TF-TRUB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS. The final four sets were meant to be for the ER, but these ended up becoming NE-SW sets, again with some vehicles intended ending up in other sets.

DMBs were 43153-43190 (NE-SW planned sets)
DMBs were 43191-43198 (ER additional planned sets)
TRUBs were 40336-40353 (NE-SW ordered catering vehicle to be swapped for TRSBs)
TRUBs were 40354-40357 (ER additional planned catering vehicle, swapped for TRSBs)
TFs were 41149-41166 (NE-SW planned sets)
TFs were 41167-41169 (ER additional planned new build vehicles, ended up in NE-SW sets)
TFs were 41170-41174 (ER additional planned vehicles rebuilt from prototype coaches, used on ER)
TSs were 42307-42322 (ER additional planned vehicles used in NE-SW sets)
TGS was 44000 (prototype)
TGSs were 44001-44090 (used to release TS vehicles from existing sets for planned NE-SW sets)
TGSs were 44091-44094 (ER planned additional set vehicles)

Two further lots of vehicles were built. 19 TSs (42323-42341) to replace the TRUKs in ER sets (except for two Pullman sets) and 7 TGSs (44095-44101) to act as spares, and form additional sets.

It's actually a lot more complicated than that, with catering vehicles swapped over lots, and then after ECML elecrification lots of reformations. In essence, the plan to operate the sets as fixed formation DEMUs (including the power cars) had broken down by the late 1980s, at which point the power cars were redesignated locomotives.

 

[theblackwatch]

Thta' a very comprehensive run-down Helvellyn, more than I had time to think about or type out! A couple of corrections/clarifications though:

The 'spare' power cars built out of sequence were the two WR ones (43120/1), not 43122/3 which were the ER pair. I'm pretty sure 43124 also came out of sequence, appearing after the main batch (43125-52) which it was a spare for.

The initial ER sets - there were actually 12 sets (not 22) with a TRUB, 254021-32 (which had 40310-21 as their catering cars). 40300-9 were initially WR vehicles not ER, they later moved north when the some of the TRUKs were taken out of use. The ER had 40018-37 which were formed in 254001-20 which also had TRUKs 40501-20 in them. There were no sets with a TRUK and TRUB in them - they were either TRUK and TRSB or TRUB. Initially the TRUK and TRSB were marshalled separately (the TRSB having a pair of TS either side), but after a couple of years they were placed together. It's also worth noting that with the TRUK and TRSB were initially placed together, the catering sections were at the outer ends (ie the kitchen end of the TRUK was nearest the TFs and the buffest end of the TRSB nearest the TSs). At a later date, they were turned so the catering ends were adjacent with just the gangway connection between them.

With regard the next batch, the TS were actually 42251-305, as the prototype TGS also formed part of this order. 42306 was part of the order with 42307-22. I think you are correct in saying the final set was never formed as such - the vehicles from the last set were actually used in the Cross Country fleet in the end.

One other thing I will pick up on:
DMBs were 43153-43190 (NE-SW planned sets)
DMBs were 43191-43198 (ER additional planned sets)

In reality, this never happened, and 43153-62 went straight to the ER. It didn't stop Crewe Works numbering 43153-90 up as 253042-50 though and 43191-8 as 254033-6 - all totally incorrect for there they ended up! Presumably this had been in the original specification, I'm unsure if they ever ran with their incorrect numbers on them.


As you say the whole thing is very complex - a book could probably written about it but I suspect there wouldn't be so much interest in it!

 

[jopsuk]

I could probably discover this if I dug deep enough, but what were the differences between the TSRB and TRUK?

 

[sprinterguy]

As you say the whole thing is very complex - a book could probably written about it but I suspect there wouldn't be so much interest in it!

"HST Silver Jubilee" by Colin Marsden gives a reliable run down of the original HST formations and the changes that occured in the early years, though not quite to the depth of Helvellyn's impressively informative post.

Regarding the singular member of class 252, the prototype HST, it's regular formation whilst in passenger use on the GWML, and during many of the trials and demonstration runs it made on the ECML, was DMB-TF-TF-TRUK-TS-TRSB-TS-TS-DMB.

It entered service, following Union disputes, in late 1972, and initially featured a mark 1 RK no 1524 in the formation, fitted with B5 bogies, before the mark 3 catering vehicles were available. The prototype HST was withdrawn from service on the Western Region in October 1976.

 

[theblackwatch]

TRUK - Restaurant 125
TRSB - Buffet-Bar 125
(as they used to be branded!)

Basically a TRUK is a high capacity kitchen car for preparing hot/full meals. A TRSB was a buffet car with a counter for serving people. It could also do snacks.

And to save you asking - a TRUB was a mix of the above 2 - it had a counter and a (smaller) kitchen area meaning some meals (but not to the capacity of a TRUK) could be produced in it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"HST Silver Jubilee" by Colin Marsden gives a reliable run down of the original HST formations and the changes that occured in the early years, though not quite to the depth of Helvellyn's impressively informative post.

Sadly the book is not quite as reliable as it could be - there are quite a few errors in it!

 

[4SRKT]

Wow. Seems it was much more complex than I remembered (or didn't remember....)

 

[Helvellyn]

With regard the next batch, the TS were actually 42251-305, as the prototype TGS also formed part of this order. 42306 was part of the order with 42307-22. I think you are correct in saying the final set was never formed as such - the vehicles from the last set were actually used in the Cross Country fleet in the end.

I'd never actually picked up on that, and assumed that 42306 was part of the batch 3 TS vehicles, when in fact it wasn't. Given that 44000's Lot No. is out of sequence, I wonder if it was converted from a vehicle that was originally intended to be 42306?

For full information, Lot No.s of the 253/254 fleets were: -

30876 43002-43055 DMB
30881 41003-41056 TF
30882 42003-42090 TS
30883 40001-40027 TRSB
30884 40501-40520 TRUK
30895 43056-43123 DMB
30896 41057-41120 TF
30897 42091-42250 TS
30898 CANCELLED (TRUKs?)
30899 40028-40037 TRSB
30921 40300-40321 TRUB
30938 41121-41148 TF
30939 42251-42305 TS
30940 40322-40335 TRUB
30941 43124-43152 DMB
30946 43153-43190 DM
30947 41149-41166 TF
30948 40336-40353 TRUB
30949 44001-44090 TGS
30953 44000-44000 TGS
30963 41167-41169 TF
30964 44091-44094 TGS
30965 CANCELLED (?)
30966 40354-40357 TRUB
30967 41170-41174 TF (Converted from prototype TF/TS vehicles)
30968 43191-43198 TGS
30969 42306-42322 TS
30970 44095-44101 TGS
30983 42323-42341 TS


Finally, I wonder if someone can help me with a puzzle. I have an InterCity 21 booklet that shows an interior of a HST. The TF has IC80 seating with the orange tiger stripe seat coverings. Now I believe there was a plan to refurbish the Mark 3 vehicles and replace the IC70 First Class seats with IC80 ones, but it never materialised. Did a few HST TF's get IC80 seating, and if so which ones? (I'm suspecting vehicles used in the Pullman sets).

 

[dubscottie]

I have a Modern Railways mag from the mid 80's that has a big write-up on that..

From what I can remember, One WR set was trial refurbished and some of the coaches where fitted with IC80 seats recovered from the APT's.

Ill look it out later and post up set/coach numbers etc.

I think it was the first set painted in Intercity livery and was used for filming on the Copypit line.

What I can remember is that the power cars did not have the diagonal grey band over the radiator grills.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its the December 1983 Modern Railways That has the story..

2 WR sets (one being 253028) Where trial refurbished.

The 2 TF's and the TRUB in both sets where fitted with Ex APT seats. It looks like, from the pics, that 2 different patterns where used. One was the Tiger scheme Helvellyn described and a Salmon Pink.

In addition one TS from each set was fitted with 76 APT seats (which was described as a "compromise" between the as built 72 seat layout and a high density 80 seat layout) with new covers.

The other TS's in both sets retained their original seats but in the then new 76 seat layout. The TGS's in both sets where just repainted.

They where the first HST's to be fitted with a Payphone also.

The only numbers I can make out from the pictures are 253028, Power Car 43151 and TF 41121.

Helvellyn is the picture you have the one of 2 Gents supping on spirits from the trolley? The one nearest the window has glasses?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Gawd.... I had a ride on the "executive" set ( as it was called when it was the only one in that livery ) from Temple Meads to Reading not long after it was unveiled. With a bit of searching I *might* just have a note of the formation.... If I get time, I'll have a look tonight and fill in the gaps for you.

 

[Helvellyn]

2 WR sets (one being 253028) Where trial refurbished.

The 2 TF's and the TRUB in both sets where fitted with Ex APT seats. It looks like, from the pics, that 2 different patterns where used. One was the Tiger scheme Helvellyn described and a Salmon Pink.

In addition one TS from each set was fitted with 76 APT seats (which was described as a "compromise" between the as built 72 seat layout and a high density 80 seat layout) with new covers.

The other TS's in both sets retained their original seats but in the then new 76 seat layout. The TGS's in both sets where just repainted.

They where the first HST's to be fitted with a Payphone also.

The only numbers I can make out from the pictures are 253028, Power Car 43151 and TF 41121.

I've dug out an old Platform 5 L&CS from 1986. From looking at that it would seem that the two sets were PM based 253028 and 253030.

253028 43125 41121 41122 40322 42251 42252 42253 44028 43126
253030 43129 41125 41126 40324 42259 42260 42261 44030 43130

41121 and 41122 are shown as refurbished, which would indicate they got IC80 seating. However, 40322 is just shown as facelifted which suggests it maybe kept the IC70 seating. All the TS vehicles are shown as facelifted, so I can't work out which one got IC80 seating.

I wonder when the IC80 seating was switched back to IC70 seating?

Helvellyn is the picture you have the one of 2 Gents supping on spirits from the trolley? The one nearest the window has glasses?

I haven't got the booklet at hand, so it'll be a week or so at least before I can check. I do recall that early refurbished vehicles had laminate walls in First Class (the carpeting came later) and that Second Class vehicles used the original seat squabs at first, which had a more rounded/padded head rest.

The booklet also had pictures of Mark 3B FOs and the seating was finished in a brown moquette! I can't recall if the Mark 3Bs ever got the IC pink moquette at some point, or went straight to the red moquette and new seat squabs when they were refurbished for (Virgin) West Coast.

 

[theblackwatch]

I've dug out an old Platform 5 L&CS from 1986. From looking at that it would seem that the two sets were PM based 253028 and 253030.

253028 43125 41121 41122 40322 42251 42252 42253 44028 43126
253030 43129 41125 41126 40324 42259 42260 42261 44030 43130

41121 and 41122 are shown as refurbished, which would indicate they got IC80 seating. However, 40322 is just shown as facelifted which suggests it maybe kept the IC70 seating. All the TS vehicles are shown as facelifted, so I can't work out which one got IC80 seating.

I wonder when the IC80 seating was switched back to IC70 seating?

I'm afraid my interest doesn't extend as far as seat types, but I can confirm the sets involved were 253028 & 253030 formed as mentioned. 43151 was done as a spare power car, as this would have been part of GW set 253041 which as previously mentioned by us both was never actually formed.

The livery of the original cars to carry IC/APT livery was slightly different to the rest - on the power cars, the yellow extended over the grills , but this showed dirt a lot som became executive dark grey on the remainder. On the coaches, the light grey extended higher on the roof, so that on the FC coaches there was a light grey section above the yellow stripe and similarly above the red on the TRUB. If my memory serves me right, one Mk. 3a vehicle (11011) also carried this variation and had some sort of refurbishment/facelift before the rest of the Mk. 3a fleet.

 

[90019]

The livery of the original cars to carry IC/APT livery was slightly different to the rest - on the power cars, the yellow extended over the grills , but this showed dirt a lot som became executive dark grey on the remainder. On the coaches, the light grey extended higher on the roof, so that on the FC coaches there was a light grey section above the yellow stripe and similarly above the red on the TRUB. If my memory serves me right, one Mk. 3a vehicle (11011) also carried this variation and had some sort of refurbishment/facelift before the rest of the Mk. 3a fleet.

That's just reminded me of this;

 

[Helvellyn]

If my memory serves me right, one Mk. 3a vehicle (11011) also carried this variation and had some sort of refurbishment/facelift before the rest of the Mk. 3a fleet.

If I recall it gained a disabled toilet - I'm guessing a prototype for what was eventually used in the Mark 3A TSOs fitted with one as well as the TSOL(W) on the 442 Wessex Electrics.

I think one reason the upper beige band was not continued with was the introduction of orange cantrail bands - this would have split this stripe off from the rest of the bodyside, so anything above cantrail height on the coaches was just painted in the roof colour. When carrying rail blue the blue extended as far up as the beige if I recall, so the original application of Executive colours would have mirrored the area covered by blue/grey.

Some of the earliest sets to carry Executive colours were the East Coast Pullman sets, which alos had Pullman branding (including boards with the Pullman crest in the lower half of the toilet/luggage rack windows that were original intended to carry destination labels).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Found my notes - it was Saturday 19th May 1984, 20.30 from Bristol TM to Reading, 43129 + 43142 but unfortunately I haven't got a note of what the rake was!

I do have a note of 43151 being in the new livery on 25th August 1984, paired with 43172 in the old livery. Also 43126 + 43130 with both in the new livery.

 

[theblackwatch]

Some of the earliest sets to carry Executive colours were the East Coast Pullman sets, which alos had Pullman branding (including boards with the Pullman crest in the lower half of the toilet/luggage rack windows that were original intended to carry destination labels).

Ah yes, the Pullman sets - I'm pretty sure there were only 2 coaches in each set with the Pullman branding/logos, these being the extra TF in the set and the TRFK which was a reclassified TRUK (3 were retained for Pullman duties - 40501/5/11).