Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[wobman]

Yes I agree it does seem all very quiet....I was expecting to start seeing them daily now. It's pretty much march now.....was it April or may they are due in service?

May is the latest of many plans on the Bidstons, tfw have plans to run 1 x 230 / 1x150 and 1x197 on the route at peak times apparently.

 

[Zontar]

May is the latest of many plans on the Bidstons, tfw have plans to run 1 x 230 / 1x150 and 1x197 on the route at peak times apparently.

At least we'll see a mixed bag of traction!
Have 197s been down bidston line yet?

 

[wobman]

At least we'll see a mixed bag of traction!
Have 197s been down bidston line yet?

Not yet but they are cleared over the route, as the 150s are leaving and a 197 can be used on the route as the 230's will fail.

Only 2 of the 5 x 230's are fit for service at present, training is planned to restart soon !

 

[Zontar]

Not yet but they are cleared over the route, as the 150s are leaving and a 197 can be used on the route as the 230's will fail.

Only 2 of the 5 x 230's are fit for service at present, training is planned to restart soon !

There must be som contingency plan in place. The arrival of these 230s looks bleak

 

[wobman]

There must be som contingency plan in place. The arrival of these 230s looks bleak

230's in some form have to run in May

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There must be som contingency plan in place. The arrival of these 230s looks bleak

Does anyone know how many of the Class 230 Vivarail units are currently running in service on any of the lines they run on in the UK?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Does anyone know how many of the Class 230 Vivarail units are currently running in service on any of the lines they run on in the UK?

AFAIK there is only one class 230 in service every day and that is an LNR unit at Bletchley
According to RTT there were 8 return trips today with buses operating the rest.

 

[Zontar]

AFAIK there is only one class 230 in service every day and that is an LNR unit at Bletchley
According to RTT there were 8 return trips today with buses operating the rest.

As a percentage it doesn't sound as bad, but still only 10% in operation!

 

[wobman]

At the beginning of the tfw 230's project I said its a flawed plan but I got abuse and guess what I've been proven correct.
Vivarail gave up on this version of the 230 project after the tfw units were built, doesn't that tell people it's flawed !

Of the 5 x 230's tfw have only 2 are able ti be used, the other 3 have faults ! The Vivarail built 230's are the most expensive units to use by a long way in tfws fleet !
There reliability is awful even worse than the Mk4s which is saying something as they fail daily.

It's a shame so much money and time has been wasted, tfw could have bought another 5x197s with plenty of money left over....

 

[Zontar]

At the beginning of the tfw 230's project I said its a flawed plan but I got abuse and guess what I've been proven correct.
Vivarail gave up on this version of the 230 project after the tfw units were built, doesn't that tell people it's flawed !

Of the 5 x 230's tfw have only 2 are able ti be used, the other 3 have faults ! The Vivarail built 230's are the most expensive units to use by a long way in tfws fleet !
There reliability is awful even worse than the Mk4s which is saying something as they fail daily.

It's a shame so much money and time has been wasted, tfw could have bought another 5x197s with plenty of money left over....

Sounds like lots of people wanted to make it work, and still do. But the reality looks very dim.

I completely agree on the waste of money, it's scandalous. Stil being spent too.....

 

[DannyMich2018]

AFAIK there is only one class 230 in service every day and that is an LNR unit at Bletchley
According to RTT there were 8 return trips today with buses operating the rest.

I think since March 2020 there's been either buses only or just a one train service on the Bedford Bletchley line so only 1 out of 3 in use so they are hardly taxed plus no Sunday service. We'll be staying near Wrexham this spring sometime so be nice to maybe see some in service.

 

[Ribbleman]

Sounds like lots of people wanted to make it work, and still do. But the reality looks very dim.

I completely agree on the waste of money, it's scandalous. Stil being spent too.....

Given that Vivarail have decided not to construct any further units with internal combustion engines, it would be interesting to know how practical and costly it would be to convert the 5 x TfW units to battery only operation. Then, as a possible alternative, compare that against the cost of keeping some of the recently refurbished 150s.

 

[wobman]

Given that Vivarail have decided not to construct any further units with internal combustion engines, it would be interesting to know how practical and costly it would be to convert the 5 x TfW units to battery only operation. Then, as a possible alternative, compare that against the cost of keeping some of the recently refurbished 150s.

Plab B is to use 197s over the route, the 150s are needed down south and they need refurbishment.

 

[Zontar]

Given that Vivarail have decided not to construct any further units with internal combustion engines, it would be interesting to know how practical and costly it would be to convert the 5 x TfW units to battery only operation. Then, as a possible alternative, compare that against the cost of keeping some of the recently refurbished 150s.

Where would they charge though?
Even some quick charge points are going to be very expensive....

 

[Ribbleman]

Where would they charge though?
Even some quick charge points are going to be very expensive....

I’ve not seen any figures for the initial costs and running expenses for charging points but with the cost of diesel fuel rising by the day and a desire to work towards reducing carbon emissions, this has to be worth looking at. Clearly Vivarail don’t deem further development with diesel engines to be worthwhile.

Regarding charging point locations, Wrexham Central and either the headshunt at Bidston or the back platform at Birkenhead North seem to be the obvious choices. Depending on costs, perhaps a third installation at Shotton for added security of supply.

Given the desire of the Welsh Assembly Government to have through trains to Liverpool, which can only realistically be achieved by using battery equipped 777s, any modifications to the TfW Class 230s would have to be done with an eye to costs and to moving them on in a few years time.

 

[mmh]

I’ve not seen any figures for the initial costs and running expenses for charging points but with the cost of diesel fuel rising by the day and a desire to work towards reducing carbon emissions, this has to be worth looking at. Clearly Vivarail don’t deem further development with diesel engines to be worthwhile.

Yes, it is an advantage that electricity is immune to rising prices.

 

[wobman]

I’ve not seen any figures for the initial costs and running expenses for charging points but with the cost of diesel fuel rising by the day and a desire to work towards reducing carbon emissions, this has to be worth looking at. Clearly Vivarail don’t deem further development with diesel engines to be worthwhile.

Regarding charging point locations, Wrexham Central and either the headshunt at Bidston or the back platform at Birkenhead North seem to be the obvious choices. Depending on costs, perhaps a third installation at Shotton for added security of supply.

Given the desire of the Welsh Assembly Government to have through trains to Liverpool, which can only realistically be achieved by using battery equipped 777s, any modifications to the TfW Class 230s would have to be done with an eye to costs and to moving them on in a few years time.

The 230's can't enter the Liverpool loop as they don't have a gangway door, tfw want the 230's to work until the battery 777s are viable and available in the future.
The trouble is the new rolling stock plans by tfw seems to have no plan b, the 230's is a terrible and very expensive mistake.

It's a Shame that people with rolling stock experience never get consulted on these projects.

 

[Ribbleman]

Yes, it is an advantage that electricity is immune to rising prices.

Sadly not, but oil prices are rising more rapidly and the 230s are apparently using rather more diesel than was anticipated. It may be worth doing the sums as I suggested above to see if battery operation to Bidston or Birkenhead North would be considered worth the investment until such time that through services to Liverpool using 777s may be feasible.

 

[mmh]

Sadly not, but oil prices are rising more rapidly and the 230s are apparently using rather more diesel than was anticipated. It may be worth doing the sums as I suggested above to see if battery operation to Bidston or Birkenhead North would be considered worth the investment until such time that through services to Liverpool using 777s may be feasible.

Other than wishful thinking, both on here and by borders MSes, I doubt anyone seriously thinks that will ever happen.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Given that Vivarail have decided not to construct any further units with internal combustion engines, it would be interesting to know how practical and costly it would be to convert the 5 x TfW units to battery only operation. Then, as a possible alternative, compare that against the cost of keeping some of the recently refurbished 150s.

Although the TfW 230s are technically self charging battery electric trains surely ?. A bit like 230002 but with battery charging gennysets under the floor. I still cannot Vivarail didn't run 230001 or 230002 over the Wrexham Bidston route using batteries with diesel gen top up. That would have provided the data they needed to prove the system viable

 

[D365]

I still cannot Vivarail didn't run 230001 or 230002 over the Wrexham Bidston route using batteries with diesel gen top up. That would have provided the data they needed to prove the system viable

002 was operated as a "Prius" battery+diesel hybrid in 2019-20.

 

[Wyrleybart]

002 was operated as a "Prius" battery+diesel hybrid in 2019-20.

So given their modular construction where allegedly a pack change is achievable in just 15 minutes with a stacker truck, that shouldn't been a difficult one to sort out.

 

[D365]

So given their modular construction where allegedly a pack change is achievable in just 15 minutes with a stacker truck, that shouldn't been a difficult one to sort out.

Not sure what you mean. I don’t think the 15 minutes was ever billed as being anything other than a like-for-like swap.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Not sure what you mean. I don’t think the 15 minutes was ever billed as being anything other than a like-for-like swap.

Yes. I agree. But I am sure the 230s were described as modular in design. So given 230001 and 230002 are or have been Vivarail's test units then it should have been relatively easy to temporarily convert one or other of them to the TfW configuration. This would have allowed Vivarail to gather real data to tweak the TfW series as they were being built. It seems the heavy fuel consumption is a concern, but this would have been known about if 230001 or 230002 had been modified with the battery genset power system. I believe 230002 did a short spell at Bo ness using batteries. Was that prior to the Senedd signing on the dotted line ?

 

[wobman]

Although the TfW 230s are technically self charging battery electric trains surely ?. A bit like 230002 but with battery charging gennysets under the floor. I still cannot Vivarail didn't run 230001 or 230002 over the Wrexham Bidston route using batteries with diesel gen top up. That would have provided the data they needed to prove the system viable

No unit testing was done on the borderlands route prior to tfw ordering the units, once tfw signed on the dotted line rog drivers tested/ mileage accumulation on them. Which proved to be useless like usual, as only when tfw tested them did the problems start showing. Obviously the gen set self charging technology is flawed, better gen sets would help but vivarail stuck with the very Unreliable and high fuel consumption Ex ford ranger designed gen sets.

At one stage CAT gen sets were discussed about but they never appeared, not even on 1 unit as a test unit. Now tfw are having to plough ahead with a May TT introduction of 1 230 if they can keep 2 of them working until May!

 

[L401CJF]

Noted a 230 leaving chester around 1010 or so this morning, saw it about half an hour later in Croes Newydd Loop ready to head down the Borderlands. Didnt catch a number unfortunately.

 

[bristollh]

Noted a 230 leaving chester around 1010 or so this morning, saw it about half an hour later in Croes Newydd Loop ready to head down the Borderlands. Didnt catch a number unfortunately.

Almost certainly 230007. It was being detached from 230006 when I passed through this morning. The latter was fired up briefly (and smokily) prior to the detachment.

Jeff

 

[ls2270]

230009 on 5Q38 1046 Crewe to Birkenhead North TMD this morning.

 

[Bob Price]

Passed an hour late. A 67 has followed it to Wrexham, not sure if this was planned or coincidence. Could a 67 rescue a 230?

 

[boby32]

230009 on 5Q38 1046 Crewe to Birkenhead North TMD this morning.

It is not 5Q38 but it is 521W.

Realtime Trains | 521W 1046 Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) to Birkenhead North E.M.U.D | 09/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 521W 1046 departure from Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) to Birkenhead North E.M.U.D on 09/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk