Class 222's with Pantograph's?

[londonmidland]

Bombardier are going to put pantograph's on the roofs of Class 222's sometime in future to allow it to run on electric for motive power. I have two questions,

1.) Where would they place the pantograph's? At the front of the train like an Electric Loco or in the "middle" like an EMU, I expect them to put it in the middle.

2.) Electrification starts at Bedford, not all services stop at Bedford. Don't you need to stop the train to allow the Pantograph to raise?

Thanks

londonmidland

 

[Lampshade]

It'll be a pantograph trailer that's added so yes, it'll be in the middle of the train rather than on a DM.

I think they're pre-empting the electrification of the MML so fitting pantographs to all of them. Also, not everything stops at Bedford but then again any 222 could stop at Bedford.

 

[MCR247]

How could an extra coach be placed at the front of the train? Of course it is going to be in the middle :?

 

[j0hn0]

Will be fine for me if they start stopping more services at bedford as I move there in a few months.

There is a big thread about all of this, might be worth searching for it

 

[ainsworth74]

Bombardier are going to put pantograph's on the roofs of Class 222's sometime in future to allow it to run on electric for motive power.

Bombardier as far as I know have only said they can convert 22xs to run off of overhead wires but no one has actually ordered any of these conversions so I'm not sure what you mean by they are going to convert the 22xs.

1.) Where would they place the pantograph's? At the front of the train like an Electric Loco or in the "middle" like an EMU, I expect them to put it in the middle.

2.) Electrification starts at Bedford, not all services stop at Bedford. Don't you need to stop the train to allow the Pantograph to raise?

1) Yes they will be in the middle of the 22x sets as they are going to be fitted to brand new pantograph cars which will include the pantograph and various other electrical gubbins to enable the 22xs to operate off of overhead wires.

2) I'm not sure as far as I know it is possible to raise and lower pantographs on the move in certain situations (there is a video somewhere of a Eurostar doing it on HS1). But normally you would have to stop the train to raise the pantograph or risk a de-wirement.

 

[jopsuk]

Eurostars did it as a matter of course when joining HS1, before the route to St pancras was complete, from the line from Waterloo. I think they did it a low speed

 

[ainsworth74]

I think they did it a low speed

Yeah it was moving pretty slow on the video I saw. So that would suggest that it is probably possible to do it regularly on the move but only at low speeds.

 

[Aictos]

Yeah it was moving pretty slow on the video I saw. So that would suggest that it is probably possible to do it regularly on the move but only at low speeds.

When FCC were coasting though Hitchin after getting special permission to do so during the Hitchin OHL blockade a year or two back, they dropped their pans on the move but had to stop in order to put them back up again.

Now I know this is referring in part to the potential MML electrification but I hope they don't do it on the cheap ala ECML otherwise they will certainly have to stop to lower/raise the pantograph.

 

[cj_1985]

was this not all talk...
i mean from what i read ... yes a plan had been developed and the technical requirements looked at... but the DfT refused to allow Virgin/AXC/EMT order the required carraiges...

iirc at the same time this was discussed, there was talk about ordering additional carraiges for the voyagers... for economies of scale... more carraiges would lead to lower costs per vehicle...

 

[ainsworth74]

i mean from what i read ... yes a plan had been developed and the technical requirements looked at... but the DfT refused to allow Virgin/AXC/EMT order the required carraiges...

That's pretty much what I've read and understood. Bombardier have said they can do it but seeing as no-one has ordered or been allowed to order any conversions or vehicles it isn't going to happen (at least at the present time).

 

[TGV]

Eurostar along with any dual or triple current TGV can lower and raise pans on the move. 373's still do so on regular service to Brussels when they switch between 25kV and 3kV.

Oh and they *might* want to consider fitting a transformer along with the pantograph... and some rectifiers, inverters....etc

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh and they *might* want to consider fitting a transformer along with the pantograph... and some rectifiers, inverters....etc

Ah yes that would be those 'gubbins' I was referring to only you used fancy accurate names for them

 

[cj_1985]

That's pretty much what I've read and understood. Bombardier have said they can do it but seeing as no-one has ordered or been allowed to order any conversions or vehicles it isn't going to happen (at least at the present time).

its a shame to say the least....
for a start, if it were allowed to happen,(forgeetting about EMT and AXC) for a moment) it would allow Virgin to get all of their Super-Voyagers fitted with a pantograph carraige, and allow extra carraiges to be built to bring their 4x car 221s up to the same length/spec as the rest of the fleet, not to mention allowing 221144 to return to traffic rather than sitting as a 2x car "training unit" ... since the WC Class 221s are used under the wires more than say the EMT 222s... it would allow a reduction in engine emmisions, and fuel requirements.

 

[Pumbaa]

2) I'm not sure as far as I know it is possible to raise and lower pantographs on the move in certain situations (there is a video somewhere of a Eurostar doing it on HS1). But normally you would have to stop the train to raise the pantograph or risk a de-wirement.

Make the OLE high enough tension/standard, it can be done no problems. Bombardier made it clear in their skeletal proposal their solution could do this pending OLE upgrades.

 

[Drsatan]

When the XC franchise is re-let, I believe that one of the franchise requirements should be that the franchisee must fund in part the construction of pantograph cars for its Voyagers. If it's a long-term franchise (like Chilterns, which allowed for the Evergreen projects), then the use of pantograph cars would be common sense given that XC's Voyagers operate 'under the wires' for part of their journies. Bombardier should also investigate whether fitting 3rd rail shoes to allow Voyagers to run on 750v DC is possible. If that's possible, then consequently, any units used on the Manchester - Bournemouth service and services to Gatwick Airport could be 'dual voltage' (assuming its possible to keep those diagrams separate from all the others)

 

[OxtedL]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmtran/writev/economy/te89.htm

Project Thor, being developed with a number of UK private sector partners, would see 500 existing diesel multiple unit vehicles converted to bi-mode diesel / electric capability, allowing them to operate as electric trains where there is already electrification infrastructure in place, while continuing their journey in diesel mode where the wires end. The Department for Transport is currently working to confirm the business case, which appears strong, and wider benefits. A paper produced by the private sector partners describing the benefits that could be delivered by this project is enclosed with this submission for the information of the Committee.

EDIT: Well that's another thread I've killed off...

 

[Mintona]

395s raise and lower pantographs at around 60mph at Ebbsfleet.

 

[jopsuk]

Are you sure? They raise and lower them at a standstill in the upper level platforms, don't they? The same at Ashford.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Only the ones that stop at Ebbsfleet. There are several every day that don't.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In any case they're using the same beefed up overhead wires as the Eurostars run on aren't they?

 

[MCR247]

395s raise and lower pantographs at around 60mph at Ebbsfleet.

I wouldn't recommend doing that on the ECML

 

[cyclebytrain]

What exactly is the issue with raising a pantograph whilst moving anyway, is it a static issue of exerting too much force on the wire or a dynamic one whereby it may up a nasty oscillatory response in the wire? (Or both)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Last time I travelled on the West London line some years ago the 313 stopped in the middle of nowhere to raise/lower its pan, a total waste of everyone's time (and energy).

This is a modern OHLE installation - same date as Dollands Moor, where Eurostars used to change at close to full line speed (100mph).

Do the more modern EMUs that now work over the West London (375/377/378) do any better than the 313?

 

[MCR247]

375s don't go anywhere near, and yes, 378s still stop

 

[londonmidland]

Last time I travelled on the West London line some years ago the 313 stopped in the middle of nowhere to raise/lower its pan, a total waste of everyone's time (and energy).

This is a modern OHLE installation - same date as Dollands Moor, where Eurostars used to change at close to full line speed (100mph).

Do the more modern EMUs that now work over the West London (375/377/378) do any better than the 313?

I was travelling onboard a class 378, Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction and we had to wait for about 2 mins for the driver to do his thing. I think there was a sign saying "drivers, lower pantograph" or something like that.

 

[TomJ93]

How about the 377s doing East Croydon to MKC?

 

[Lampshade]

What exactly is the issue with raising a pantograph whilst moving anyway, is it a static issue of exerting too much force on the wire or a dynamic one whereby it may up a nasty oscillatory response in the wire? (Or both)

The problem is the wires on HS1 are fiercely sprung for high speed use, the wiring on the ECML is as slack as XC's timetable and so a de-wirement is highly likely at anything above a snail's pace - one reason why GNER could only run the 373s at 110mph.

I was travelling onboard a class 378, Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction and we had to wait for about 2 mins for the driver to do his thing. I think there was a sign saying "drivers, lower pantograph" or something like that.

Electrostars need completely rebooting when changing from third rail to OHLE, 377s take ages at Farringdon whereas 319s and 313s are almost instant.

 

[MCR247]

How about the 377s doing East Croydon to MKC?

They need to stop and completely reboot, as do 378s, but 350s can apparently do this on the move!

 

[Nym]

OK, I've said it many times so I'll be breif...

Transformers that need to fit under the carrage will need to provide enough KW to the three phase transmission system used on the 22x series units to be able to be used.

1) Transforming from single phase 25kv AC to three phase aint easy, it's very hard and needs some very beefey solid state electronics.
2) Such a device to be able to power a whole unit will not fit under one carrage of a 22x unit
3) Even if such a unit could be fit inside the area needed, it wouldn't be desirable to do so, converting a 4 car 220 or 221 to a 5 car electrodiesel unit with one panto/transformer car is pushing the limits of what the distribution system on the units would be able to take. As a general rule of thumb, the current can travel two carrages.

Therefore:
4 car units become 5 or 6 car units (Much easyer to provide two 1700kw transformers than one 3400kw one) only one panto raised at a time, HV link cable along the top (as on pendos)
5 car units become 7 car
7 car units become 10 car (or loose some generator cars to the 5 car units to make a standard fleet of 8 car units)

Because of the way the control system works (and I aint typing all that again), new generator cars may have any type of diesel or gas engine fitted, without worry of it affecting the others, it would simply make for more complex servicing, witch isn't desired.

From the point of view of the TOC, it is more carrages, and less diesel costs. But it is at the trade off of less power to weight when on diesel only, but, again, thanks to the control systems that are used on these units, as most non-electrified lines (post GWML wires) will have a linespeed of 110 or less, this won't affect it, only the accelaration between approximatly 90 and 125mph.

In any way, conclusion from this being able to be done is:

Wire Crewe - Chester
Wire the Midland Main Line
Electrodieselify the 22x fleet

No longer have a requirement for ANY bi-mode IEP units.

Oh and PS: Pan up or down on the move needs very high tensions in the cables above, on the fly is not a good idea unless the wires are designed to do it. Such as on the Fawkham Link

 

[TGV]

A couple of points: first 373's used by GNER could and did the full 125mph on any stretch that was permitted between Woolmer Green and Grantham. 110mph north of that. Nym - yes that's what I was referring to as well (although I was even more brief!). It is possible to have a single underfloor transformer (plus cooling) for up to around 1.5MW of tractive power. However the inverters, and rectifier modules (plus all associated cooling) would probably need to be mounted either above the floor (taking away passenger space) or in an adjacent carriage. I really don't know if this is a proposal that will happen, I'm purely thinking of the technical issues. Finally though, it is an urban myth that you need super tight catenary to raise pans on the move. TGV's do so on the old SNCB wires outside Brussels and they make the ECML catenery look like guitar strings. Pantographs have a nominal static uplift force (around 70 to 90 N) that needs to be in spec for running. When raising (this force should be constant at all heights) there is the possibility for small spikes in this value. That will react against the wire pushing it perhaps a little further up than in static position. The impact as someone said sets up an oscillation, but that is not usually more than normal and is rapidly damped by the presence of the pan head anyway. I can't comment on some older UK emu's that stop to raise pans but I suspect its a limitation of the rolling stock.
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Edit: I refer to 1.5MW as a possible power output for a single vehicle with underfloor traction equipment (not spread to neighbouring vehicles). 2MW possibly but much beyond that and you may need to redistribute things. Ballpark figures of course.