Class 222s - increasingly rough riding?

[61653 HTAFC]

Not my experience of Mk4s, the few trips I had were very pleasant but that was back in GNER days. GW HSTs usually felt great as long as you were ditting down.

These 222 "vibrations", what sort of period/frequency are you talking about?

It wasn't me that brought the 222s up- personally the last time I was on one, the shocking state of the interiors was far more of a concern than any ride quality issues.

On the ECML the mk4s always felt a bit rocky at high speeds to me especially southbound when being propelled, certainly not as smooth as the HSTs.

 

[baz962]

The HSTs certainly did ride pretty poorly during their latter years. I’m not sure they were ever really that good to begin with?!

The MML has a lot of steep curves and some of the point work does feel “rough” at times. Trent Junction going towards Nottingham is particularly bad at the moment.

Sharnbrook is a boneshaker too.

 

[DannyMich2018]

I definitely concur with all of this. I’d add that the public address systems in what, to me, seems like the majority of carriages are now knackered and not fit for purpose.

The EMR 222s are not great, regularly dirty windows so you can't see out well or they steamed up, the seat to window alignment is poor in many seats, the airline seating is very claustrophobic due to the way the seats are joined together, also the poor seating capacity with too many 1st class seats. Always try and use the Class 180 service if possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were like a hovercraft compared to Mk4s though.

Agreed, Mk4s are the only stock where I have come close to pulling the red handle thinking a bogie had derailed. Cheap junk built down to a price.

 

[bramling]

It’s difficult to be objective as so much varies by location and between individual units. On the MML I wouldn’t objectively say 222s ride worse than the mk3s, with their “sway and bounce” which @Bletchleyite described. Of course with the Meridians there’s engine vibration and other issues people dislike, which aren’t strictly “ride quality”.

700s (and Desiros generally) seem to me to be about the best riding units, certainly better than Electrostars. But again people seem to be poisoned against these units by their drab interior and dislike of the seats.

Comparison is certainly interesting.

On the GN, 365 rode the best. Worst in my experience is 387 and IEP. Mk4 not great, Mk3 better. 700 somewhere in the middle. 317 and 321 very much depended upon where seated and whether in a motor car or not, but a good 321 was excellent.

Special mention for 387s, their ride is dire, especially at the vehicle ends. The hard seats and intrusive armrests make this worse, and add to that the usual Electrostar rattles and it doesn’t make for a good journey experience, which is unfortunate as the trains are otherwise not bad.

 

[LiftFan]

The 800s ride awfully at full speed between Paddington and Reading in my experience, combined with the strange knocking noise from the suspension it never feels all that safe! A lot of rail seems to be getting more rough riding anyway it seems, perhaps a lapse in maintenance can be blamed where the GWML is concerned.

 

[AndyMike]

The EMR 222s are not great, regularly dirty windows so you can't see out well or they steamed up, the seat to window alignment is poor in many seats, the airline seating is very claustrophobic due to the way the seats are joined together, also the poor seating capacity with too many 1st class seats. Always try and use the Class 180 service if possible.

There are, at least, plenty of tables - and space at them is pretty decent. Agree about the dirt and grime, which create such a bad impression.

 

[Irascible]

The 800s ride awfully at full speed between Paddington and Reading in my experience, combined with the strange knocking noise from the suspension it never feels all that safe! A lot of rail seems to be getting more rough riding anyway it seems, perhaps a lapse in maintenance can be blamed where the GWML is concerned.

Tried any other stock along there? it could just be the 800s ageing already if it feels ok in something else.

 

[LiftFan]

Tried any other stock along there? it could just be the 800s ageing already if it feels ok in something else.

It also feels just as bumpy in a 387, the HSTs rode better on that bit of track however they used to ride worse down the B&H towards Pewsey.

 

[Tracked]

Went on one from Sheffield to Derby yesterday, seemed a little bouncy through Clay Cross tunnel, but they look really shabby now - when the announcer said 1st class are the blue seats, standards class the red, I thought she should be saying the red seats with black headrests as that seems to be more accurate these days ...

Used to get the HST pre-Covid, one of the sets used to ride quite roughly around Dronfield (I usually sat in the same carriage, to be close to the subway at Chesterfield)

 

[STINT47]

I very much doubt that anyone at EMR would deliberately allow a train to run if an exam was overdue but is there a possibility that maintenance has been cut back to the extent that a safety issue could slip through and cause an incident?

Looking at the internal and external state of the 222s both of which are very bad it gives the impression that EMR have cut maintenance to the bare minimum, which is something their parent company Abellio has also shown on other franchises.

There is also the issue that the PA is often faulty and a post appeared on Facebook recently saying the the bulb for the AWS sunflower was not working so they could not see it in the dark. If this is true it does not install confidence

The fear I have is that by cutting back to save money this could potentialy lead to overworked staff with limited time and resources making a mistake, leading to an accident.

I am not saying that this is happening and it's in no way meant as a criticism of any one working at EMR but when you look at the state of the trains coupled to the poor riding, which wasn't an issue before people will start to wonder.

 

[O L Leigh]

I very much doubt that anyone at EMR would deliberately allow a train to run if an exam was overdue but is there a possibility that maintenance has been cut back to the extent that a safety issue could slip through and cause an incident?

I'm saying it's an option, not whether or not it's true. Are you saying no one has broken any important laws ever?

And the moon might be made of blue cheese.

Honestly, it’s a huge leap you’re both making. It’s simply not true that dirty means dangerous. Rolling stock getting pulled for maintenance because it’s running out of miles is far from uncommon and regular maintenance, which includes fault reporting, daily prep and regular inspections, ensures that developing problems are picked up.

…which is something their parent company Abellio has also shown on other franchises.

Really? Can you cite any sources for this?

 

[CDM]

700s (and Desiros generally) seem to me to be about the best riding units, certainly better than Electrostars. But again people seem to be poisoned against these units by their drab interior and dislike of the seats.

Desiro's are fine on vertically bumpy track, but are absolutely horrendously stiff on yaw. Really, hatefully bad on that. Awful to try and drink coffee or a read a paper (yes I know... who still does that later, right)? Electrostar far excels from a more compliantly damped yaw perspective.

Agreed, Mk4s are the only stock where I have come close to pulling the red handle thinking a bogie had derailed. Cheap junk built down to a price.

Mk4's weren't 'cheap junk built down to a price'. They are a decent build that's actually stood up very well given what they've had to deal with. Maintenance intervals on that fleet have been pushed out like you wouldn't believe and having level 4 minor exams done by various different suppliers means they spend most of their time being maintained by staff who never really fully understand the train, or give it any pride.

The biggest issue with their ride stems from that fact they were built to operate at 140mph, but never did. The dynamic forces at 140mph are different than at 125mph, so they aren't 'tuned' to suit the way they have actually ended up being operated.

 

[londonmidland]

There is also the issue that the PA is often faulty

Unfortunately this is nothing new with the 222s, and is a common occurrence. If it isn’t frequently cutting out that is an issue, then it’s being ridiculously quiet that is another issue, to the point where you cannot hear a thing.

Funnily enough, I’ve never had this issue with the Voyagers.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Rode a 5-car 222 Sheffield (1237 service) to StP today, and didn’t notice any rough riding.
Noise from the engine was noticeable when at full power climbing some of the gradients, and the odd bend caused a sliding thermos flask (normal for the Midland I’d say). But nothing I’d call rough riding, and I was alert to it having seen this thread.

 

[Pete_uk]

Regarding the shaking, why does this happen when the engine shuts down?

It might be because as the revs drop the vibrations from the engine go down to a frequency which can be transmitted through the bodywork and into your posterior. It's to do with resonant frequencies.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Some of the cylinders are still firing due to residual fuel from leaking injectors and/or worn piston rings.