Class 222s - increasingly rough riding?

[londonmidland]

I’ve noticed over the past couple of months the Class 222s would vibrate and shake rigorously whilst at speed. I believe this is related to something called ‘bogie hunting’?

The worst affected area seems to be on the MML South, roughly anywhere between St. Albans and Bedford. Although it can happen on other parts of the MML, too. I haven’t had this experience on Class 220s, which have the same bogies as 222s.

Is this behaviour completely ‘normal’ for the Class or does it depend on maintenance?

 

[GC class B1]

I’ve noticed over the past couple of months the Class 222s would vibrate and shake rigorously whilst at speed. I believe this is related to something called ‘bogie hunting’?

The worst affected area seems to be on the MML South, roughly anywhere between St. Albans and Bedford. Although it can happen on other parts of the MML, too. I haven’t had this experience on Class 220s, which have the same bogies as 222s.

Is this behaviour completely ‘normal’ for the Class or does it depend on maintenance?

In my experience bogie hunting would not be described as normal, but it is not unusual. It is related to wear of both the bogie and track and as such is ‘maintenance‘ related. Wheel reprofiling will reduce the tendency for bogie hunting and newly overhauled bogies will not normally hunt.

 

[ChrisC]

I’ve noticed over the past couple of months the Class 222s would vibrate and shake rigorously whilst at speed. I believe this is related to something called ‘bogie hunting’?

The worst affected area seems to be on the MML South, roughly anywhere between St. Albans and Bedford. Although it can happen on other parts of the MML, too. I haven’t had this experience on Class 220s, which have the same bogies as 222s.

Is this behaviour completely ‘normal’ for the Class or does it depend on maintenance?

I travelled down to London from Nottingham on a 222 last week and remember some very unusual vibrating and shaking south of Bedford. I’d forgotten all about it until I read this thread.

 

[liamf656]

I spend a lot of time on the Meridians and every single trip I do, it happens at Leagrave going south and around the Bedford area going north. The fact this happens at the exact same place makes me want to think that it's down to other conditions than the trains themselves. I can't answer for certain though but someone on here probably will

 

[GC class B1]

I spend a lot of time on the Meridians and every single trip I do, it happens at Leagrave going south and around the Bedford area going north. The fact this happens at the exact same place makes me want to think that it's down to other conditions than the trains themselves. I can't answer for certain though but someone on here probably will

Bogie hunting is caused by wheelset instability. The interface between the wheel and the rail is a key factor and therefore bogie hunting will be more likely to occur at specific locations.

 

[liamf656]

Bogie hunting is caused by wheelset instability. The interface between the wheel and the rail is a key factor and therefore bogie hunting will be more likely to occur at specific locations.

That makes sense, thank you for explaining

 

[diffarc]

Looks like Nottingham South MP has noticed too!

https://twitter.com/liliangreenwood/status/1489251729996615681?s=21

 

[londonmidland]

I’ve honestly never felt anything so bad, and that’s comparing it to the many Azuma journeys I’ve been on!

It’s not only the vibrations, but it’s the fact that the whole carriage shakes vigorously. You certainly know when it happens, with pax’ faces saying it all.

 

[QSK19]

I think this could be a case of “run it into the ground because they’re going off lease in a year and there’s no point spending time & money fixing them” - same thing as GA did with the 360s and the ex-LNER HSTs.

 

[43096]

I think this could be a case of “run it into the ground because they’re going off lease in a year and there’s no point spending time & money fixing them” - same thing as GA did with the 360s and the ex-LNER HSTs.

They cannot just not do maintenance on safety critical items: for example there are limits on mileage before bogie overhauls must be done. It’s part of the vehicle maintenance regime and has to be adhered to.

 

[Domh245]

Surely the fact that it appears to be multiple 222s, and only in specific locations, implies the issue is more likely track related than anything on the units themselves?

 

[westcoaster]

Certainly do not get this on 700's. There used to be one short section where hunting occurred crossing the M25 on the up fast (but not on every unit).

Wonder if it's down to the wheel profile. Now a 222 engine shutting down at speed is a horrible shaking experience.

 

[ChrisC]

Surely the fact that it appears to be multiple 222s, and only in specific locations, implies the issue is more likely track related than anything on the units themselves?

Although there probably are no safety issues, it is very disconcerting for the passenger when the train is shaking and shuddering quite badly whilst travelling at speeds in excess of 100mph.

 

[O L Leigh]

Surely the fact that it appears to be multiple 222s, and only in specific locations, implies the issue is more likely track related than anything on the units themselves?

That would be my view too.

I've experienced something not dissimilar in the past. I thought I had flats on the wheels on a particular unit because it was making the distinctive rattling sound. The problem was that I was getting the same sensation on every train that I subsequently drove across that section of route, and it surely couldn't have been the case that every single unit was suffering the same fault. It turned out to be a track defect causing it.

It is not unknown to get rough riding on one class and not another, so the fact that Cl700s don't appear to be affected is not a huge surprise. They are very differently configured to a Cl222 and weigh a good deal less to boot.

 

[dosxuk]

Now a 222 engine shutting down at speed is a horrible shaking experience.

Is it?

I've been on a 222 where the engine was starting and stopping throughout the entire journey from Sheffield to London, and while the shutdown was noticeable, I'd never describe it as horrible. Certainly no more alarming than some of the jolts you used to get from the Mk3's.

 

[43066]

Is it?

I've been on a 222 where the engine was starting and stopping throughout the entire journey from Sheffield to London, and while the shutdown was noticeable, I'd never describe it as horrible. Certainly no more alarming than some of the jolts you used to get from the Mk3's.

The HSTs certainly did ride pretty poorly during their latter years. I’m not sure they were ever really that good to begin with?!

The MML has a lot of steep curves and some of the point work does feel “rough” at times. Trent Junction going towards Nottingham is particularly bad at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The HSTs certainly did ride pretty poorly during their latter years. I’m not sure they were ever that good to begin with?!

In my experience Mk3s never rode particularly well, with a characteristic sway and bounce, but the short swing-link ones (most HSTs) were even worse.

 

[43066]

In my experience Mk3s never rode particularly well, with a characteristic sway and bounce, but the short swing-link ones (most HSTs) were even worse.

I think so many view HSTs through “rose tinted specs” that it’s difficult for people to admit this!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Although there probably are no safety issues, it is very disconcerting for the passenger when the train is shaking and shuddering quite badly whilst travelling at speeds in excess of 100mph.

And it's natural for customers to extrapolate from the state of the bits they can see, to the state of the bits they can't.

And the bits of Cl222 that customers do see are decrepit now - seat covers are threadbare and stained, window seals have failed, the carriage lighting is still halogen spots, not LEDs
The outsides are also very dirty at the moment.

I've done a few short trips on 222s in the last few weeks and haven't noticed any issues, but also haven't been over the suspect bits of line either.

 

[43096]

I think so many view HSTs through “rose tinted specs” that it’s difficult for people to admit this!

It’s even harder for some to accept that many modern trains ride abysmally. Anyone who thinks the 80x fleet has anything other than an appalling rude quality doesn’t know what good ride quality is.

 

[CDM]

I think this could be a case of “run it into the ground because they’re going off lease in a year and there’s no point spending time & money fixing them” - same thing as GA did with the 360s and the ex-LNER HSTs.

Wholly incorrect for the Class 360s.

There was absolutely no change to the maintenance carried out on the Class 360s as they neared the end of their time with GA. The maintenance spec stayed exactly the same, both at routine maintenance and heavy overhaul levels.

The units had been in service for a long time since build though and the interior and exterior paint schemes were never 'refurbished' (save vestibule carpets and seat covers being renewed for a new design as one-off campaign change because they were beyond their sensible wear and cleaning life), hence they looked a bit 'tired', but there was absolutely no 'running them into the ground' or 'no point spending time and money fixing them' change. That was just a reflection of where they were in age at the time - they were coming due for that refurbishment.

 

[43066]

It’s even harder for some to accept that many modern trains ride abysmally. Anyone who thinks the 80x fleet has anything other than an appalling rude quality doesn’t know what good ride quality is.

It’s difficult to be objective as so much varies by location and between individual units. On the MML I wouldn’t objectively say 222s ride worse than the mk3s, with their “sway and bounce” which @Bletchleyite described. Of course with the Meridians there’s engine vibration and other issues people dislike, which aren’t strictly “ride quality”.

700s (and Desiros generally) seem to me to be about the best riding units, certainly better than Electrostars. But again people seem to be poisoned against these units by their drab interior and dislike of the seats.

 

[fgwrich]

It’s even harder for some to accept that many modern trains ride abysmally. Anyone who thinks the 80x fleet has anything other than an appalling rude quality doesn’t know what good ride quality is.

I almost agree with this. Though both can at times be as bad as each other. The GWML HST's with their original bogie fitment rode beautifully, and I think only the 180s came a close second in being anywhere as good along the GWML. The East Coast examples, fitted with the notorious "Pegasus Suspension", rode absolutely horribly and didn't take much for them to go into a good bouncy bouncy bouncy sequence. Even David Horne once asked who the original supplier was so they could aim to replace them - something that only took place when they went over to EMR (another part of the great EC>EMR HST waste). But, both the 80X and 385 fleets offer an abysmal ride, and this is worse over the track friendly lightweight bogies which also offer hunting as part of their ride experience (particularly one the GWR examples). The Flexx Eco bogie from Bombardier, and the subject of this thread, isn't great either, and it's a shame to see them appear under everything from Derby now.

 

[ChrisC]

It’s difficult to be objective as so much varies by location and between individual units. On the MML I wouldn’t objectively say 222s ride worse than the mk3s, with their “sway and bounce” which @Bletchleyite described. Of course with the Meridians there’s engine vibration and other issues people dislike, which aren’t strictly “ride quality”.

700s (and Desiros generally) seem to me to be about the best riding units, certainly better than Electrostars. But again people seem to be poisoned against these units by their drab interior and dislike of the seats.

Apart from the engine vibration, which I don’t find too bad, I always think that the ride quality on the Meridians is quite good. That was certainly the case when I travelled down to London last week. Most of the journey from Nottingham to London, although I was in First Class, was very smooth and comfortable.
There were just two short stretches south of Bedford where there was very noticeable shaking and shuddering.

 

[greyman42]

Now a 222 engine shutting down at speed is a horrible shaking experience.

Regarding the shaking, why does this happen when the engine shuts down?

 

[Nym]

Wholly incorrect for the Class 360s.

There was absolutely no change to the maintenance carried out on the Class 360s as they neared the end of their time with GA. The maintenance spec stayed exactly the same, both at routine maintenance and heavy overhaul levels.

The units had been in service for a long time since build though and the interior and exterior paint schemes were never 'refurbished' (save vestibule carpets and seat covers being renewed for a new design as one-off campaign change because they were beyond their sensible wear and cleaning life), hence they looked a bit 'tired', but there was absolutely no 'running them into the ground' or 'no point spending time and money fixing them' change. That was just a reflection of where they were in age at the time - they were coming due for that refurbishment.

There's a significant difference between following the maintenance specification and keeping on top of all of the problems before they develop. Simply following the spec doesn't take care of any arising systemic or non-systemic issues with the fleet. Expending engineering time to address longer term issues rather than just technician time to 'keep it fixed' certainly does happen toward the end of the fleets life with the ToC. Management don't want to spend the extra money, and the finite ToC engineering resource will be concentrating on delivering their new fleets.

 

[Railperf]

Wholly incorrect for the Class 360s.

There was absolutely no change to the maintenance carried out on the Class 360s as they neared the end of their time with GA. The maintenance spec stayed exactly the same, both at routine maintenance and heavy overhaul levels.

The units had been in service for a long time since build though and the interior and exterior paint schemes were never 'refurbished' (save vestibule carpets and seat covers being renewed for a new design as one-off campaign change because they were beyond their sensible wear and cleaning life), hence they looked a bit 'tired', but there was absolutely no 'running them into the ground' or 'no point spending time and money fixing them' change. That was just a reflection of where they were in age at the time - they were coming due for that refurbishment.

The reliability figures published in Modern Railways suggest otherwise. These were one of the most reliable fleets in the country and the sister Class 350 fleets still are. In the last year of 360 operation on GA, reliability clearly dropped significantly. There was definitely a degradation of ride quality - attributed to suspension components being worn and not replaced.

 

[AndyMike]

And it's natural for customers to extrapolate from the state of the bits they can see, to the state of the bits they can't.

And the bits of Cl222 that customers do see are decrepit now - seat covers are threadbare and stained, window seals have failed, the carriage lighting is still halogen spots, not LEDs
The outsides are also very dirty at the moment.

I definitely concur with all of this. I’d add that the public address systems in what, to me, seems like the majority of carriages are now knackered and not fit for purpose.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In my experience Mk3s never rode particularly well, with a characteristic sway and bounce, but the short swing-link ones (most HSTs) were even worse.

They were like a hovercraft compared to Mk4s though.

 

[Irascible]

They were like a hovercraft compared to Mk4s though.

Not my experience of Mk4s, the few trips I had were very pleasant but that was back in GNER days. GW HSTs usually felt great as long as you were ditting down.

These 222 "vibrations", what sort of period/frequency are you talking about?