Class 210

[Helvellyn]

I'm hoping members can help - I'm trying to find out full details of the Class 210 units, including lot numbers, etc. Can anyone help?

 

[yorkie]

Does this answer the question?

http://www.traintesting.com/class_210_demu.htm

210001 comprised vehicles 60201 ,60401, 60400 and 60300
210002 comprised vehicles 60200, 60450 and 60301

 

[physics34]

watch Smalltown Boy by Bronski Beat

 

[455driver]

watch Smalltown Boy by Bronski Beat

Thank you, I knew it was in a music video but couldnt remember which one, it was really bugging me.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Weren't two trailer coaches rebuilt to replace accident victims in SWT 455's - one only recently?

 

[Domh245]

I think that one of the DMSOs was rebuilt into a TSO

 

[455driver]

I think that one of the DMSOs was rebuilt into a TSO

I am still convinced that they cut bits off the 210 motor coach to rebuild the crushed 455 motor coach, it still has all the 455/9 features where-as the ex 210 coach didnt.

67400 still retains all its 210 features and wasnt changed to 455/9 spec so why would they change this coach?

 

[physics34]

Thank you, I knew it was in a music video but couldnt remember which one, it was really bugging me.

 

[Defiance149]

I am still convinced that they cut bits off the 210 motor coach to rebuild the crushed 455 motor coach, it still has all the 455/9 features where-as the ex 210 coach didnt.

You would be wrong then, 62838 was stripped and scrapped at Wolverton, saw the remains myself.

 

[CAF397]

It was the other way round. Bits of the 455 were cut off to attach to the 210.

http://www.therailengineer.com/2013/05/10/reshelling-a-455/

 

[455driver]

You would be wrong then, 62838 was stripped and scrapped at Wolverton, saw the remains myself.

Was it a significant amount of red painted scrap or just a little?
The remains of the 455 coach seem to have been scrapped with indecent haste.

There are a lot of small detail differences between the 210 and 455 and the 'new' coach has a lot of 455 bits which wouldnt really need to be swapped over to the ex210 coach but they were for some reason.
I cannott state categorically that I am right but things dont seem quite right with this one.
Personally I couldnt give a monkeys which coach was rebuilt as long as it is safe which I am 100% certain this coach is, it is just a curiosity thing.

 

[CAF397]

Read that article I linked to. Very thorough.

 

[455driver]

I did read it but I note there are no pictures of the ex210 during the conversion, just one before and one of the completed unit.
I would have thought some pictures with the cab removed, the 'new' end attached etc would have been nice.

I am just naturally pessimistic when my eyes (when looking at the finished item) dont agree with what I am reading/hearing. I suppose I could rip the floor up and measure the crossmembers to see what size they are but SWT might get a bit upset/think I have gone mad if I did that!

 

[Defiance149]

Was it a significant amount of red painted scrap or just a little?

The entire frame/solebar, complete with red paint along its entire length.

 

[High Dyke]

Thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38321

I remember the units at Reading...making an interesting contrast to their predecessor. As NIR managed to re-engineer some of their older vehicles into the 450 class - with a similar bodyshell produced by BREL - it makes you wonder why this side of the water we never persevered with a fleet of them.

 

[edwin_m]

As NIR managed to re-engineer some of their older vehicles into the 450 class - with a similar bodyshell produced by BREL - it makes you wonder why this side of the water we never persevered with a fleet of them.

I wonder if the NIR DEMUs, being Mk2 based, had some rust problems with the bodies but mechanical parts were still serviceable. The same might not have applied to BR's "Thumper" units which were the only types where such a rebuilding might have been possible.

I seem to recall the 210 itself being overspecified, with performance equivalent to an EMU and even being able to multiple with a 317. Statements of that type usually mean the engine is too big for the job and uses a lot more fuel, and an above-floor engine taking up passenger space is a particular problem if all you want or can afford is 2-car units.

Having reviewed both the 210 and the 141, Modern Railways asked "Perhaps the best DMU replacement is another DMU?". Sure enough the 150 and 151 prototypes were ordered not long after.

 

[DT611]

I wonder if the NIR DEMUs, being Mk2 based, had some rust problems with the bodies but mechanical parts were still serviceable.

the nir 450 class had an mk3 bodyshell, but the traction packages and the bogies were from 70 class units which i believe were mk1 based, but 1 had parts including a traction package from a scrapped 80 class. the nir 80 class were mk2 based and were retired back in 2011/12. older trailors were converted to work with the 70 class and the power cars even hauled some freight services. fantastic little things by the sounds of it the likes we won't see again

 

[theblackwatch]

I did read it but I note there are no pictures of the ex210 during the conversion, just one before and one of the completed unit.
I would have thought some pictures with the cab removed, the 'new' end attached etc would have been nice.

I am just naturally pessimistic when my eyes (when looking at the finished item) dont agree with what I am reading/hearing. I suppose I could rip the floor up and measure the crossmembers to see what size they are but SWT might get a bit upset/think I have gone mad if I did that!

I do agree it would be nice to see some 'mid conversion' pictures if any exist, even though I'm not doubting the conversion. I had a look at the vehicle when I travelled on it, and although I'm not expert on detail on 455s (as I live up north!), I couldn't find anything that made it appear different.

 

[High Dyke]

... fantastic little things by the sounds of it the likes we won't see again

Indeed they were. The best way to describe the 450 DEMU was a combination of the old BR 20x class DEMU but with a Class 150 body on. Experienced the last few years of running in Northern Ireland.

As the 210 had a slightly different traction package though i can't be certain how they sounded. I'll have to search out some of my old tape recordings...

 

[dubscottie]

I wonder if the NIR DEMUs, being Mk2 based, had some rust problems with the bodies but mechanical parts were still serviceable.

Yes they did have rust! (its a problem that may effect the class 317's in the future also).

The trailers were build in Derby and the motor coaches at York. They didn't (for some reason) use the same grades of steel.

The trailers had the same rot problems as other MK2's but the motor coaches seemed to have faired better.

I have a PDF somewhere of the East Coast electrification and one of the things mentioned was the problems repairing class 317's as the TC's (Built Derby) had different steel from the 2x DSO's and the motor-coach (Built York).

IIRC York used Corten steel (as used on shipping containers) and Derby used "regular" steel for the bodywork. I presume the frames etc were standard.

 

[455driver]

I do agree it would be nice to see some 'mid conversion' pictures if any exist, even though I'm not doubting the conversion. I had a look at the vehicle when I travelled on it, and although I'm not expert on detail on 455s (as I live up north!), I couldn't find anything that made it appear different.

Door runners, suspension mouting points, vents on roof for 3.

the last is explained away in the article, the other 2 are not.

An example of my OCD-
The doors with the bigger windows (formerly on 5918 and 5920*) are now spread throughout the 455/9 fleet, some having one pair of doors, others having just the one cab door fitted.
The doors with the lower windows ex 67400 seem to have disappeared but I do keep a look out on the 455/7 and 455/8s for them making a re-appearance. Yes I really am that sad that I look for all the little detail bits.

* If you wonder why these had different sized windows than the other 455s look to the 317 fleet (which followed the 455s off the production line), there are a couple of them with the smaller windows, what a coincidence!

 

[Aictos]

Yes they did have rust! (its a problem that may effect the class 317's in the future also).

The trailers were build in Derby and the motor coaches at York. They didn't (for some reason) use the same grades of steel.

The trailers had the same rot problems as other MK2's but the motor coaches seemed to have faired better.

I have a PDF somewhere of the East Coast electrification and one of the things mentioned was the problems repairing class 317's as the TC's (Built Derby) had different steel from the 2x DSO's and the motor-coach (Built York).

IIRC York used Corten steel (as used on shipping containers) and Derby used "regular" steel for the bodywork. I presume the frames etc were standard.

If you still have the PDF could you share it?

 

[edwin_m]

Could this be a case for reducing the 317s to three-car for routes in the north where platforms are too long for two four-car units?

 

[physics34]

Door runners, suspension mouting points, vents on roof for 3.

the last is explained away in the article, the other 2 are not.

An example of my OCD-
The doors with the bigger windows (formerly on 5918 and 5920*) are now spread throughout the 455/9 fleet, some having one pair of doors, others having just the one cab door fitted.
The doors with the lower windows ex 67400 seem to have disappeared but I do keep a look out on the 455/7 and 455/8s for them making a re-appearance. Yes I really am that sad that I look for all the little detail bits.

* If you wonder why these had different sized windows than the other 455s look to the 317 fleet (which followed the 455s off the production line), there are a couple of them with the smaller windows, what a coincidence!

ha ha, i notice these things.

Sure theres a Southern 455/8 with a cab door with a lower window. Don't remember the number though.

 

[455driver]

ha ha, i notice these things.

Sure theres a Southern 455/8 with a cab door with a lower window. Don't remember the number though.

I wont mention 5901 with the NDT bodyshell the wrong way round (look at the roof vents) or the Southern 455/8 with a 377 style cab window on the second mans side.

 

[physics34]

I wont mention 5901 with the NDT bodyshell the wrong way round (look at the roof vents) or the Southern 455/8 with a 377 style cab window on the second mans side.

ooooo didnt know about 5901.

Yeh 455829 (i think) has that window. Think that was the first to be refurbished and was an experiment.

 

[theblackwatch]

We have a member living up north (I won't mention his name!) who knows of differences in the 142s such as which one has pink handrails by one door, or has 2 seats in a different moquette....maybe you should all get together. :P

 

[dubscottie]

If you still have the PDF could you share it?

I have another somewhere that explains the problems further but can't find it for now..