Class 210 Driving Motor

[hexagon789]

33056 for these things must be absurdly rare unless there's one lying around in a box in Derby somewhere. One of the videos ( the one with the powercar at the back ) appears to show it notching up after it's got moving a bit, but there's a footbridge in the way to muddle matters.

Searching google was no further help. I did find out though that the Paxman engine was uprated, according to the Paxman history site the engine was increased from 840kW at 1500rpm to 915kW at 1500rpm. The increased power enabled the four-car set to attain 103mph.

 

[4SubAsociation]

The Class 210 trailer coach / 457 DSMO is at East Kent Railway. It is owned by the Subruban Electric Railway Association. I would put a link but the website is currently down (being investigated, will be put up when its up)

It did have some work recently (October). Which included refitting the cab door (that had not been refitted since withdrawal), replacement horn switch fitted (albiet not reconnected) and general cleaning. I had all the light fittings down and cleaned inside them. They really needed doing.

I know the second man seating is currently missing but that is in hand. Also the rubber boot that goes around the horn switch is missing. There are a couple of minor bits too but it is being worked on.

Here is some pics for your interest.

 

[hexagon789]

The Class 210 trailer coach / 457 DSMO is at East Kent Railway. It is owned by the Subruban Electric Railway Association. I would put a link but the website is currently down (being investigated, will be put up when its up)

It did have some work recently (October). Which included refitting the cab door (that had not been refitted since withdrawal), replacement horn switch fitted (albiet not reconnected) and general cleaning. I had all the light fittings down and cleaned inside them. They really needed doing.

I know the second man seating is currently missing but that is in hand. Also the rubber boot that goes around the horn switch is missing. There are a couple of minor bits too but it is being worked on.

Here is some pics for your interest.

Interesting, thanks for sharing that.

Obviously the passenger seats aren't original but I wonder how much of the cab equipment is.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Interesting, thanks for sharing that.

Obviously the passenger seats aren't original but I wonder how much of the cab equipment is.

Passenger seats are not. They where insstalled during NSE days as they are similar to the Networker Family seat.

Horn leaver is not as that came out of a 317 (we think?). It was whatever was left when the unit was withdrawn as i think became a bit of christmas tree for parts in some cases. Which leads onto a question about one of the TSO's

Now i know one of them ended up in 5912. This was due to the orignal vechile being involved in Plug Door Trials and having strucutal weeknesses (See here - http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/rolling-stock/455/index.html)

However TSO 67401. It states on wiki that the body still survives but the rest does not. Does anyone know anymore?

 

[hexagon789]

However TSO 67401. It states on wiki that the body still survives but the rest does not. Does anyone know anymore?

The wiki page for the Class 210 lists that vehicle as scrapped. No mention of the bodyshell

 

[4SubAsociation]

On the 457 page it lists it as Scrapped, Body still in one piece

British Rail Classes 316 and 457 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hexagon789]

On the 457 page it lists it as Scrapped, Body still in one piece

British Rail Classes 316 and 457 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I see what you mean. The vintage carriage register didn't shine any light on the matter either, the two DM vehicles from the 457 are listed but not 67401 unfortunately

 

[O L Leigh]

Here is some pics for your interest.

Very interesting.

I see that there are one or two small blanking plates on the desk covering various missing switches, including what I recall being the bell/buzzer. I would imagine that BR will have made some changes to the desk in the process of converting the Cl210 vehicles to the Cl457/Cl316 prototype, so what you have there is probably not very original anyway. But it is very familiar to me from my time driving Cl317s. It would be interesting to know to what extent there was parts commonality across the Cl317/Cl455 fleets and how much you could legitimately pinch from one of these units to return your Cl210 cab to original spec.

One control that is very different, to Cl317s at least, is the power controller. Yours appears to be of a type with the DSD built-in which the driver could choose to use in preference to the DSD pedal, such as is (was) found on the Cl315, whereas the Cl317 only had the DSD on the pedal and a different power controller. I've no idea if the Cl210 had this feature or if it was added as part of the conversion.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Very interesting.

I see that there are one or two small blanking plates on the desk covering various missing switches, including what I recall being the bell/buzzer. I would imagine that BR will have made some changes to the desk in the process of converting the Cl210 vehicles to the Cl457/Cl316 prototype, so what you have there is probably not very original anyway. But it is very familiar to me from my time driving Cl317s. It would be interesting to know to what extent there was parts commonality across the Cl317/Cl455 fleets and how much you could legitimately pinch from one of these units to return your Cl210 cab to original spec.

One control that is very different, to Cl317s at least, is the power controller. Yours appears to be of a type with the DSD built-in which the driver could choose to use in preference to the DSD pedal, such as is (was) found on the Cl315, whereas the Cl317 only had the DSD on the pedal and a different power controller. I've no idea if the Cl210 had this feature or if it was added as part of the conversion.

Thank you for this information. I will forward this information on. To be honest the best thing we would need is a pic of the cab in service as the 457 so we can cross compare to see what is missing. I know the secondmans seat was out of a 317.

 

[O L Leigh]

Do you have a pic already of the cab/desk from it's days as a Cl210 vehicle? I have to say that I have no idea what the cab layout would have been except that it probably followed the same design as that used on the Cl317/Cl455. The DSD power controller may indeed be correct for the type; it's just that it's different to that used on the Cl317.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Do you have a pic already of the cab/desk from it's days as a Cl210 vehicle? I have to say that I have no idea what the cab layout would have been except that it probably followed the same design as that used on the Cl317/Cl455. The DSD power controller may indeed be correct for the type; it's just that it's different to that used on the Cl317.

Ironically i just had a look and found a pic from when it was a 316. It looks like the horn lever we got was out of a 442. Not 317 which is of similar design.

Ref- http://www.dawlishtrains.com/uk-emu-cabs-3xxx.html

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2020 ==

With our cab. We would like to make it the same spec as it was as a 457. Not a 210 as this is what it is representing.

 

[O L Leigh]

Good find!!

I think that BR just had a big bin labelled "Horn Levers" because the one you have there doesn't look wrong. I certainly recall there being a mix of long and short levers on the Cl317s. However, that photo does show that the power controller has been changed at some point.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Good find!!

I think that BR just had a big bin labelled "Horn Levers" because the one you have there doesn't look wrong. I certainly recall there being a mix of long and short levers on the Cl317s. However, that photo does show that the power controller has been changed at some point.

Apperently it is the same controller as 455 according to Graeme.

 

[O L Leigh]

In that case I'll bow to his knowledge. But the photo of the Cl455 cab on the Dawlish Trains website shows the same power controller as the Cl317 (as does the Cl442 and Cl456).

There's a 50% chance that the C316 cab photo is not of your vehicle, in which case it's not impossible that the controller in your cab is the original one for that cab.

 

[hexagon789]

Very interesting.

I see that there are one or two small blanking plates on the desk covering various missing switches, including what I recall being the bell/buzzer. I would imagine that BR will have made some changes to the desk in the process of converting the Cl210 vehicles to the Cl457/Cl316 prototype, so what you have there is probably not very original anyway. But it is very familiar to me from my time driving Cl317s. It would be interesting to know to what extent there was parts commonality across the Cl317/Cl455 fleets and how much you could legitimately pinch from one of these units to return your Cl210 cab to original spec.

One control that is very different, to Cl317s at least, is the power controller. Yours appears to be of a type with the DSD built-in which the driver could choose to use in preference to the DSD pedal, such as is (was) found on the Cl315, whereas the Cl317 only had the DSD on the pedal and a different power controller. I've no idea if the Cl210 had this feature or if it was added as part of the conversion.

Perhaps it's original? While the 210 dates from about the same period as the 317 but being a prototype rather than production class they might not have updated the design in certain respects and so it might have the design of power controller handle carried over from the last EMU design at the time.

Just a guess.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Have to admit I'm surprised that some mad-man (or woman) hasn't come up with a crackpot scheme to recreate the 210 using a soon-to-be scrapped Cl 317 or 455 as the base.......

I asked on Twitter less than two weeks ago if a 317 driving car could be used to recreate a 210 driving car.

The answer was, it would in fact be quite easy...

 

[Richard Scott]

I asked on Twitter less than two weeks ago if a 317 driving car could be used to recreate a 210 driving car.

The answer was, it would in fact be quite easy...

Just the driving car, which would think is fairly straightforward, but what about the power car? That would be nigh on impossible I'd think.

 

[Journeyman]

Just the driving car, which would think is fairly straightforward, but what about the power car? That would be nigh on impossible I'd think.

Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions!

 

[Irascible]

Just the driving car, which would think is fairly straightforward, but what about the power car? That would be nigh on impossible I'd think.

That's why I thought if you were going to do it you'd be better using a 317 MS & graft a cab on it - I am assuming they're already a little more heavily constructed given they're 49 tonnes ( if not, then well, not worse than a trailer anyway! ) and you're going to have to cut the roof open for the engine as it is. It looks like you're in luck with one set of doors at least!

The 210 had Brush traction motors, did anything else comparable?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just the driving car, which would think is fairly straightforward, but what about the power car? That would be nigh on impossible I'd think.

I was talking about the motor end of the unit in my tweet.

The most tricky thing, I think, would be the floor and frames re-inforcement at the engine end.

 

[Richard Scott]

Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions!

Solution is to weld lots of reinforcement in or use the old adage that if I were you I wouldn't start from here! Probably best to start from scratch due to integral design?

 

[O L Leigh]

Well the basic recipe for a 4 car replica Cl210 will be one Cl317 plus one TSOL. Whether you graft the cab onto the PMOS or move the power and control equipment under a DTOS you're going to be looking at a fairly big job as you'll be fixing corrosion before you can even start to make any modifications. I've never had the chance to have a proper look underneath a Cl317, so I've no idea whether or not there are structural differences between the motor and trailer coaches, nor if there needs to be any strengthening required.

It's certainly not impossible but it may not be feasible/affordable, especially if you can't get hold of the prime mover.

 

[WAO]

There is an article in Rail Engineer, link below which shows some differences between the 210 cars and later EMU cars.

Reshelling a 455 - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article Guy Fawkes’ Day, 5 November 2010, and the 15:05 South West Trains service left Guildford for Waterloo. It was an eight-car train, made up of two Class 455 electric multiple units coupled together. Twenty minutes later, it was departing Oxshott station. At the same time, a...

www.railengineer.co.uk

I don't think that anyone wants a reproduction 210 correct to the last split pin and locking washer.

However, a cosmetic conversion of a 317 to a SPEMU with either a battery raft or a small commercial generator set (not a big one needed for 25mph heritage operation) might have wings. Heritage lines need non-steam operation on the timetable shoulders, when traffic is thinner, (alternatively a 769 when they become available).

The 210 car at the East Kent is really a museum piece as it is the first ac inverter driven motor coach, so does not want hacking about.

WAO

 

[SERA01UK]

I’m quite taken aback with all the interest in the 210 and the 457 project. With regard to the cab of the 457 the power controller we have appears to be off a 313 and it’s been there since we got the vehicle in 2000, no idea of when or why the swap occurred but the plan is to obtain the correct pattern one as soon as one is available.

As for the abortive 210 preservation project I can tell you a lot about this as I was behind it, indeed 67300 is a legacy of the project. Back in 1999 we were given the chance to buy the two driving cars of the 457, 67300 and 67301. This we did with the intention of keeping 67300 as a static display of the three phase development unit, a key time in the history of U.K. electric train. The other car 67301 was for a possible 210 preservation project as at that time all three vehicles of 210 002 existed. One of the SERA members funded the purchase of intermediate trailer 67400 but only a month after the sale Porterbrook changed their minds as 67400 would be needed to replace a damaged trailer in 455 unit 5912 so the vehicle was technically preserved for a matter of weeks but never left Wimbledon Park depot during this time.

The 210 power cars were at Eastleigh and had lost all of their seating but retained engines and traction equipment so were basically complete. One item that had been robbed from each car was the driving end tight lock coupler. Given that road access was not possible to Eastleigh works the vehicles would have needed to be made fit for travel to the yard the other side of the Botley road where road access was possible. This proved to be an impossible task given the work needed to make them fit to travel and by late 2001 I gave it up as a lost cause given the huge amount of work required to make it happen which outstripped the level of support there was for the project; indeed 67301 had only been purchased thanks to a loan to the group. Others tried after me to extract them and also failed so the 210 vehicles at Eastleigh were cut up on site a couple of years later.

This left 67301 as surplus to SERA’s requirements so as part of a massive clearout of stored, abandoned and redundant vehicles at Coventry prior to the creation of the ERM it was disposed off back to a ROSCO as a spare body shell, at a small profit too. It has since been rebuilt to replace the 455 MSO that was destroyed by a cement mixer.

As for plans to re-create a 210, well nothing is impossible, it just needs a suitable budget and the correct level of expertise. Someone was totting an idea of building one out of 455 cars a couple of years ago. I don’t think this is the way to go. The 210s were built on the same lines as the first batch of 317s so that should be the starting point but it will require the same level of detail as applied to the building of the A1 to take it from there to a working replica; locating the original drawings is a must have.

No-one has got as close as I did to preserving a 210 and I suspect there isn’t the will or the support to change that.

 

[WesternLancer]

I’m quite taken aback with all the interest in the 210 and the 457 project. With regard to the cab of the 457 the power controller we have appears to be off a 313 and it’s been there since we got the vehicle in 2000, no idea of when or why the swap occurred but the plan is to obtain the correct pattern one as soon as one is available.

As for the abortive 210 preservation project I can tell you a lot about this as I was behind it, indeed 67300 is a legacy of the project. Back in 1999 we were given the chance to buy the two driving cars of the 457, 67300 and 67301. This we did with the intention of keeping 67300 as a static display of the three phase development unit, a key time in the history of U.K. electric train. The other car 67301 was for a possible 210 preservation project as at that time all three vehicles of 210 002 existed. One of the SERA members funded the purchase of intermediate trailer 67400 but only a month after the sale Porterbrook changed their minds as 67400 would be needed to replace a damaged trailer in 455 unit 5912 so the vehicle was technically preserved for a matter of weeks but never left Wimbledon Park depot during this time.

The 210 power cars were at Eastleigh and had lost all of their seating but retained engines and traction equipment so were basically complete. One item that had been robbed from each car was the driving end tight lock coupler. Given that road access was not possible to Eastleigh works the vehicles would have needed to be made fit for travel to the yard the other side of the Botley road where road access was possible. This proved to be an impossible task given the work needed to make them fit to travel and by late 2001 I gave it up as a lost cause given the huge amount of work required to make it happen which outstripped the level of support there was for the project; indeed 67301 had only been purchased thanks to a loan to the group. Others tried after me to extract them and also failed so the 210 vehicles at Eastleigh were cut up on site a couple of years later.

This left 67301 as surplus to SERA’s requirements so as part of a massive clearout of stored, abandoned and redundant vehicles at Coventry prior to the creation of the ERM it was disposed off back to a ROSCO as a spare body shell, at a small profit too. It has since been rebuilt to replace the 455 MSO that was destroyed by a cement mixer.

As for plans to re-create a 210, well nothing is impossible, it just needs a suitable budget and the correct level of expertise. Someone was totting an idea of building one out of 455 cars a couple of years ago. I don’t think this is the way to go. The 210s were built on the same lines as the first batch of 317s so that should be the starting point but it will require the same level of detail as applied to the building of the A1 to take it from there to a working replica; locating the original drawings is a must have.

No-one has got as close as I did to preserving a 210 and I suspect there isn’t the will or the support to change that.

Interesting to read that synopsis, thanks for posting it.

 

[Sprinter107]

Id love to see a class 210 re appear. I never managed to go on either of them, even tho they both worked the Birmingham Cross City line, and ive always been a fan of the first batch of class 317 emus.

 

[Beebman]

For a couple of months in September and October 1985 I became something of a regular user of 210 001 when it was on the WR. At the time I was commuting 4 days a week from Twyford to Highbury & Islington via Paddington for a one-year (January to December) Postgrad course at the then Poly of North London. During the autumn one of my lectures (I think it was on a Friday) finished about half-an-hour earlier and so I found myself at PAD expecting to hang around for the first loco-hauled service of the peak hours at around 17.00. However I happened to notice that a stopper leaving at around 16.30 was formed of this unit so I decided to give it a go. I found it comfortable with a very nippy acceleration, indeed arrival at Twyford was on-time which was unusual in those days for a stopper! For a while I then became a regular weekly user of this service, I probably made about 6 trips on the unit during those weeks although I remember it was once subbed by a Class 119 DMMU. It's a real shame that BR didn't go ahead and order a fleet of 210s for Thames Valley services. (I also rode on 210 002 a couple of times at weekends.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a real shame that BR didn't go ahead and order a fleet of 210s for Thames Valley services. (I also rode on 210 002 a couple of times at weekends.)

I'd argue it was more of a shame they didn't get the wires up (if only to Reading) and got 317s or similar instead.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd argue it was more of a shame they didn't get the wires up (if only to Reading) and got 317s or similar instead.

I hoped they were going to order 210s to replace the SR DEMUs, which seemed pretty tired to me even then, never imagined they would role on on the southern region well into the privatization era!

 

[hexagon789]

I hoped they were going to order 210s to replace the SR DEMUs, which seemed pretty tired to me even then, never imagined they would role on on the southern region well into the privatization era!

And outlive the 210s to boot!