Class 185s sounding a bit sick

[Philip]

Maybe sick isn't the right word as a lot of them sound better for it! The point being I've recently noticed a good number of 185s have sounded a bit rough when idling and more so when setting off, it sounds a bit like a hoover or air rushing through a tight hole. 185106 is particularly noisy with this. Anyone else noticed it and is it a deliberate modification?

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe they are pushing back maintenance with having a 185 out-of-service and the 350/4s dropping like flies at the moment.

 

[Philip]

Maybe they are pushing back maintenance with having a 185 out-of-service and the 350/4s dropping like flies at the moment.

Which one is out of service?

 

[Jonny]

To answer the original question...

It's probably the 'eco mode'. Which is probably greenwashing as an excuse to save fuel and hence money.

 

[northwichcat]

Which one is out of service?

The one which had a collision on the Scarborough-York line, unless I missed that it's returned to service.
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It's probably the 'eco mode'. Which is probably greenwashing as an excuse to save fuel and hence money.

Eco-mode isn't a recent thing though as it was introduced years back, unless you mean using eco-mode has damaged the trains.

 

[ash39]

I noticed it too, my first thought was that it was air con related.

 

[ValleyLines142]

which one is out of service?

185105

 

[Crossover]

I was on one on Sunday morning to Darlington and it didn't sound very healthy. Not eco mode. It just sounded like it had a bag of marbles rolling around in it when idle!

 

[Eng274]

I'd speculate that it was air con working hard, or the radiator fans kicking in to keep the engine cool since there's a lower coolant flow rate when the engine is at idle - particularly an issue if the engines have been ragged hard then shut off to tickover. I've known of people with high pressure turbocharged cars to seize the turbo because they've thrashed it and switched off the engine at the destination without keeping the oil flow to the (usually red hot) turbo for a few minutes.

A bad whooshing noise at full revs could be a turbo gasket leak. Or perhaps the engines are coming up to their mid life overhaul and are generally getting a bit tired.

 

[Philip]

Some of them don't half sound good though as a result, on some of them the noise I'm on about changes tone with the engine when it's revving up, so you've got a combination of the engine throb with this high pitched wooshing/hoover sound. I first noticed it on a few of them a couple of years ago but the noise went away for whatever reason, but more and more of them are making the noise again now.

 

[Train_Juane]

Those noisy 185s! Well luckily us in North Lancs & South Cumbria are looking forward to getting those lovely pacers back now that Barrow is about to be removed from TPEs route map

 

[Geeves]

Ive heard a few where the idle seems to be pretty crazy, sounds a bit like an old Leyland Atlantean bus! Others where is sounds like its trying to suck in the worlds supply of oxygen

By the way Train_Juane, take a trip to Barrow and you will already see 142s, they are back! Lancaster - Carlisle and return and various other workings. Lovely !

 

[Philip]

Those noisy 185s! Well luckily us in North Lancs & South Cumbria are looking forward to getting those lovely pacers back now that Barrow is about to be removed from TPEs route map

Depends whether Northern continue to run a regular direct service between Barrow and Manchester. If they do then the obvious choice of stock is 185s cascaded from TPE to make use of the WCML linespeed and the Manchester-Preston speed when it's upgraded.

 

[northwichcat]

Depends whether Northern continue to run a regular direct service between Barrow and Manchester. If they do then the obvious choice of stock is 185s cascaded from TPE to make use of the WCML linespeed and the Manchester-Preston speed when it's upgraded.

Not everywhere losing a TPE service to Manchester* will continue to get 185s unless some madman is managing director of the next franchise.

* Cleethorpes, Scarborough, Middlesbrough, Barrow and Windermere.

 

[Philip]

Not everywhere losing a TPE service to Manchester* will continue to get 185s unless some madman is managing director of the next franchise.

* Cleethorpes, Scarborough, Middlesbrough, Barrow and Windermere.

But it makes sense for any semi-long distance services, especially those with a few calling points, not under wires in this region as once the North TPE is wired there'll be a lot of 185s available for other work. Even if 185s continue to run on the South TPE and add Nottingham to their duties there will still be a lot left lying around.

 

[hassaanhc]

Our electric 450 Desiros in London seem to be noisier than usual recently, sounding far too similar to a Class 455 . Probably the air conditioning working hard?

 

[fowler9]

Our electric 450 Desiros in London seem to be noisier than usual recently, sounding far too similar to a Class 455 . Probably the air conditioning working hard?

It has been quite humid for a few weeks. Could that explain it? That could have an effect on air conditioning units which can make a lot of noise.

 

[js1000]

This is uncanny. I was scheduled to get the Sheffield to Piccadilly service at 20:11 last night (Friday).

The 185 got to Sheffield but the engine sounded very rough. I know they are loud ones but even I was surprised at just how loud it was. Got on, a few calls for staff on the intercom, station staff frantically running on the platform, engine turn off & 20 minutes later - staff recommended we catch another service.

They said it was a technical fault. So yeah, another 185 out of service it seems. As I left Sheffield it was still stranded on platform 6. I checked train refunds and it shows the train was cancelled.

Sorry I didn't catch what unit it was, I'm noob & not that geeky - YET anyway. But yes, the fact I came across this thread suggests everything is not right at the moment in regards to maintanence & reliablity at TPE.

 

[ianhr]

Obviously not one of Siemens better products. On the other hand I have always thought that they are unfit for purpose for TPE and this is now showing up mechanically, in addition to the unsuitable and inadequate passnger accommodation.

When it comes to the question of how to redeploy them after TP electrification, will this be constrained by the specialised servicing facility at Ardwick? If they are tied to this depot then presumably they can only work routes radiating from Manchester and the only lines not scheduled for wiring are: E. Lancs/Leeds via Rochdale, Southport, CLC routes, and Hope Valley.

 

[northwichcat]

Obviously not one of Siemens better products. On the other hand I have always thought that they are unfit for purpose for TPE and this is now showing up mechanically, in addition to the unsuitable and inadequate passnger accommodation.

When it comes to the question of how to redeploy them after TP electrification, will this be constrained by the specialised servicing facility at Ardwick? If they are tied to this depot then presumably they can only work routes radiating from Manchester and the only lines not scheduled for wiring are: E. Lancs/Leeds via Rochdale, Southport, CLC routes, and Hope Valley.

Based on platform lengthening plans and proposed route transfers I think they'll mainly be focused on Liverpool-Sheffield-Nottingham and Liverpool-Doncaster-Hull services in up to 6 car formations. There's also an option for an additional Manchester-Sheffield fast train every hour, while Hull is likely to retain a direct hourly Manchester service whether or not it's electrified or not. It's also been proposed Scarborough and Middlesbrough may get token services to Manchester, plus there's they'll be overnight TPE services running via Wakefield and Brighouse which will need to be DMUs.

The Southport and Buxton lines were deemed as unsuitable routes to cascade regional stock with low seating density by Network Rail. The Hope Valley stoppers and Mid-Cheshire line services were deemed suitable routes but given platform lengths and lengthening plans I think they would envisage 170s being used on those routes not 185s.

 

[ac6000cw]

The Southport and Buxton lines were deemed as unsuitable routes to cascade regional stock with low seating density by Network Rail. The Hope Valley stoppers and Mid-Cheshire line services were deemed suitable routes but given platform lengths and lengthening plans I think they would envisage 170s being used on those routes not 185s.

What's it got to do with Network Rail (other than possible track and clearance problems - the 185's are relatively heavy) - surely rolling stock deployment is a DfT/TOC/RosCo issue ?

 

[Philip]

Based on platform lengthening plans and proposed route transfers I think they'll mainly be focused on Liverpool-Sheffield-Nottingham and Liverpool-Doncaster-Hull services in up to 6 car formations. There's also an option for an additional Manchester-Sheffield fast train every hour, while Hull is likely to retain a direct hourly Manchester service whether or not it's electrified or not. It's also been proposed Scarborough and Middlesbrough may get token services to Manchester, plus there's they'll be overnight TPE services running via Wakefield and Brighouse which will need to be DMUs.

The Southport and Buxton lines were deemed as unsuitable routes to cascade regional stock with low seating density by Network Rail. The Hope Valley stoppers and Mid-Cheshire line services were deemed suitable routes but given platform lengths and lengthening plans I think they would envisage 170s being used on those routes not 185s.

That would probably deploy around 30-35 185s max if the extra Sheffield service starts. Even if there are token services from Scarborough and Middlesbrough it's more likely they'll be worked by the same traction as the local shuttles (158s) on the same diagrams, with standard class only. Hull to Selby will almost certainly be electrified.

I'm surprised Manchester-Cardiff hasn't been mentioned more. The 185s would bring first class to the route and with a fair few stops south of Shrewsbury the commuter door layout wouldn't be too out of place. If you ran them all as 6-car formations between Manchester and Cardiff (with Cardiff to West Wales running as a separate service) that would require around 14 units and along with the 30 odd used on South TPE duties you'd pretty much have a similar number in service as you have now. Then cascade 175s to fast/longer distance diesel Northern routes (Chester to Manchester via Northwich, Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington and Manchester Airport to Southport/Barrow) and increasing capacity of the North Wales inter-urban services.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm surprised Manchester-Cardiff hasn't been mentioned more. The 185s would bring first class to the route and with a fair few stops south of Shrewsbury the commuter door layout wouldn't be too out of place. If you ran them all as 6-car formations between Manchester and Cardiff (with Cardiff to West Wales running as a separate service) that would require around 14 units and along with the 30 odd used on South TPE duties you'd pretty much have a similar number in service as you have now. Then cascade 175s to fast/longer distance diesel Northern routes (Chester to Manchester via Northwich, Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington and Manchester Airport to Southport/Barrow) and increasing capacity of the North Wales inter-urban services.

There's a few problems with that mind. Almost all of the platforms south of Crewe won't take 6 cars, large parts of the line has Sprinter and HST speed limits so 185's would be slower (albeit with better acceleration), and I'm not sure how great the 175's would be on the lines you mention with their door and internal layouts.

 

[northwichcat]

What's it got to do with Network Rail (other than possible track and clearance problems - the 185's are relatively heavy) - surely rolling stock deployment is a DfT/TOC/RosCo issue ?

This is why Network Rail say they are undertaking such work:

The Long Term Planning Process (LTPP) is designed to facilitate the strategic planning of the rail network in a way which is flexible enough to take into account the views of the rail industry, funders, specifiers and customers on the requirements to develop the network to meet future demand through market studies, cross-boundary analysis and route studies.

The process is taking the views of local stakeholders into account and incorporates their views on how the rail industry can drive and support economic growth, as well as giving passenger and freight operators the confidence they need to take their own strategic decisions in planning the future of their services. This process also fulfils our licence obligations to plan the future capability of the network.

Initially we publish draft market and route studies, which are followed by a 90 day consultation period. The consultation responses help to form the final documents.

The specifically for the regional urban study

In developing the market studies, the rail industry sets out a new approach to developing plans for the future. This reflects the need to gain a better understanding about how plans for the railway impact on the economy and make sure that strategic change, such as the implementation of the Northern Hub programme, the development and implementation of the electrification programme and the development of High Speed 2, can be effectively considered in rail industry planning.

The regional urban market relates primarily to travel by large numbers of people for commuting or leisure purposes in an area less than 50 miles from a regional centre and this study seeks to understand where rail can exploit its competitive advantages in best serving this market. Despite the recession commuting demand into regional centres continues to grow as a result of modal shift from road to rail. It is anticipated that this growth will continue in the future. Key deliverables of the study are the ‘conditional outputs’ for the regional urban sector in terms of frequency and journey times on key suburban corridors.

The regional urban market study draft for consultation was published on 25 April 2013. The final document has taken the consultation responses into account and has been revised in collaboration with the regional urban market study working group.

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I'm surprised Manchester-Cardiff hasn't been mentioned more. The 185s would bring first class to the route and with a fair few stops south of Shrewsbury the commuter door layout wouldn't be too out of place. If you ran them all as 6-car formations between Manchester and Cardiff (with Cardiff to West Wales running as a separate service) that would require around 14 units and along with the 30 odd used on South TPE duties you'd pretty much have a similar number in service as you have now. Then cascade 175s to fast/longer distance diesel Northern routes (Chester to Manchester via Northwich, Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington and Manchester Airport to Southport/Barrow) and increasing capacity of the North Wales inter-urban services.

What your proposing is the second most heavily subsided franchise (after Scotrail) takes on the most costly DMUs and runs services at double and triple the current length of train (6 cars instead of 2 or 3.) Who will fund that?
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I'm not sure how great the 175's would be on the lines you mention with their door and internal layouts.

Well the 175s use to run what was the busiest morning peak train on the Mid-Cheshire line and they faired better than the 142s and 156s do currently.

With Northern's current DMU fleet only the 150s are really suitable for services which have a high number boarding or alighting at an intermediate station without an extended dwell time.

 

[samuelmorris]

Surely before too much is pointed at Siemens, the 185s use the same engines as the 180s and Voyagers? Compared to the those, they should also have age on their side though...

On the 450 front, they seem to have turned up the fans for the traction equipment? I never remember noticing them before, and I've never heard them on the 360s, but even back in February/March they were pulling into stations making quite a racket. Perhaps it's a change made for reliability improvements? <shrugs>

 

[Philip]

Ok so perhaps run most of the Cardiff services with a single DMU (185) with perhaps just a couple of peak time trains being doubled up. Capacity wise would this still not be an improvement with the 2-coach 175 formations (there are a fair few) becoming 3-coach 185s. As mentioned above the faster acceleration of the 185s would make up a good amount of the time lost through not running at SP speeds. At stations like Crewe and Shrewsbury (haven't seen enough of the more southern calling points) the door layout of the 185 would make huge improvements to dwell time for alighting and boarding, it's often a lengthy scramble getting off a 175 at Crewe!

 

[Crossover]

This is uncanny. I was scheduled to get the Sheffield to Piccadilly service at 20:11 last night (Friday).

The 185 got to Sheffield but the engine sounded very rough. I know they are loud ones but even I was surprised at just how loud it was. Got on, a few calls for staff on the intercom, station staff frantically running on the platform, engine turn off & 20 minutes later - staff recommended we catch another service.

They said it was a technical fault. So yeah, another 185 out of service it seems. As I left Sheffield it was still stranded on platform 6. I checked train refunds and it shows the train was cancelled.

Sorry I didn't catch what unit it was, I'm noob & not that geeky - YET anyway. But yes, the fact I came across this thread suggests everything is not right at the moment in regards to maintanence & reliablity at TPE.

Looking at RTT, TPE really didn't do very well with that particular service on Friday!

 

[TOCDriver]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. You ever heard a two stroke bike engine at idle?

 

[samuelmorris]

There aren't many similarities between a single-cylinder two-stroke bike engine and a QSK19

 

[222001]

I've travelled on them quite a bit recently and not really noticed any difference to normal myself. People saying they're not good products should be reminded they won the golden spanner for best new generation DMU for last year:

Gold - Class 185 - Trans Pennine Express/Ardwick/Eversholt (22,809 MTIN)